Find's Treasure Forums

Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!

You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.

Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.

Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.

Click here to register!



Need Support Help?

Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you

Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.

I Have Two Different Kinds Of Air Test Results For The ATX Using The Standard DD Double Coil

John-Edmonton

Moderator
Staff member
atx_zpsb773a1e8.jpg~original


My first type of air test consisted of placing the target on the ground, with the shown settings of discrimination and threshold, with the discrimination setting set at zero. To maintain a certain level of reliability, I performed the test wearing sweat pants, T-Shirt, no rings, wallet, belt, empty pockets and shoes with no metal. The measurements were taken from a static fixture, my leg, where the horizontal coil would barely yet audibly get a reading from the target lying horizontal on the ground, on an area free of any metal. I have fairly neutral ground, consisting of a humus layer in the upper stratus of about 3 inches, with clay below. The test was taken in my backyard, about 25 feet from my house. I had to deal with a large amount of EMI, having to retune the ATX at time to quiet it down at times. As previously mentioned, I measured the audio barely audible however still repeating against the still audible EMI. As predicted, the large gold ring managed to get the greatest depth. My understanding of the ATX platform is that it was specifically tweaked for gold. The other gold ring, considerably smaller in mass and diameter, also fared well. My favorite target for depth testing is a small lead 22 projectile, which came in at about 8 inches, with a sensitivity set at 6, possible max out at 13 and a threshold setting at 4 with a possible max a also at 13. Running both these settings any hire just made the ATX too unstable at it's location. And, as a typical household, we ave a couple large screen TV.s, cable, wi-fi for computer and cell phones.


atxall1_zpsa90b1eec.jpg~original


This second test was was again performed in my back yard, only I moved the test away from the house another 10 feet. And again to maintain a certan level of reliability, I performed the test wearing sweat pants, T-Shirt, no rings, wallet, belt, empty pockets and shoes with no metal. What made this test different from the one above, is that instead of placing the target on the ground, I performed strictly an air test, measuring the distance between the coil and target, with no matrix past the coil except air. I was curious as to the amount of EMI present. As it turned out, the EMI was slightly less, however probably due to the air tests being performed further away from the source (house). One purpose of the test was to show the difference in depth with an increase of threshold on the ATX. The increase of threshold from six to 10 while still maintaing a sensitiviry of 8 showed about 1 inch increase with the large gold ring, 1 inch increase on the nickel and a doubling of depth on the small fleck of gold...so tiny it won't read on my electronic weigh scale set in grams. I used the nickel in my air tests this time, as a nickel can be a good indicator for a piece of gold, and I also wanted to see how it would read, assuming that the ATX was tweaked for gold.

Please remember......these are air tests, and reading for depth in the ground will deviate from my results, based on ground conditions, water, moisture, target size, EMI, coil used, how the machine is programmed. Air tests are useful for comparisons of settings against a target, and also comparisons against numerous targets, under different conditions.

rI have yet another test (TEST #3) nearly completed. It will show how the non-motion mode compares to the motion mode, and also how the ATX operates with both sensitivity and threshold cranked up to near max. Some of my results indicated such an increase with the air test that I want to redo a few targets again. This test was performed about 6 miles south of Edmonton, on a gravel with no above or below power lines nearby
 
John-Edmonton said:
atx_zpsb773a1e8.jpg~original

atxall1_zpsa90b1eec.jpg~original



Please remember......these are air tests, and reading for depth in the ground will deviate from my results, based on ground conditions, water, moisture, target size, EMI, coil used, how the machine is programmed. Air tests are useful for comparisons of settings against a target, and also comparisons against numerous targets, under different conditions.


Thanks John,
Air Tests - in my opinion are not worth the effort. They do not tell you anything in real detecting terms. We hunt for items in the ground not in air. The only tests worth anything are real life in ground detecting. Another informative way being a well established test bed and I mean well established by time, not something just buried in the ground.
 
@filternozzle.i totally agree with you that Air Testing is not the best scenario and in ground testing would be the best option,the trouble is that ground conditions around the planet are not all the same,but air testing can be used as a rough guide in any location in theory and that is why people do it.

Its not the best way for sure but its accepted as the universal guide line on how detectors can perform,of course i could well be wrong but the ground conditions in Scotland would be nothing like say the outback in Aussie land or Nevada.

I cannot see any other way of doing a universal depth test apart from Air testing method that most people use,i totally agree that PI usually go deeper than airtests.

More that likely i am seeing it all wrong,i usually do :thumbup: :ukflag:
 
John, have you figured out the battery life you are getting on the ATX?
 
HI John.
Your air test figures seem to be quite good but as everybody wants to know, How does the ATX perform in high iron mineralisation as is found here in Australia?
The ATX has been tested in some locations over here and some small nuggets have been found, however I will add that not all Aussie Western Australian gold fields are highly mineralised and to date nobody has indicated what sort of ground the Aussie nuggs were found in or at what depth. That info has been kept quiet. In fact I am obtaining more info from your testing than what I have been able to obtain from any of the Australian testing.
The fact that you have been able to find some small chains is an indication of the detectors sensitivity.
You indicate that the detector can become a bit unstable at high gain and threshold levels? Is that just where there is EMI present or is it also in EMI quiet areas? How effective is the EMI cancelling feature?
 
Running the ATX in the city seems to prevent the machine from operating at high sensitivity and threshold. I did do some more testing in the country, and the EMI issues weren't a problem. Luckily, the places we hunt aren't in our back yards in the city. Edmonton's population with surrounding municipalities is over a million people.
 
John, thank you so much for taking the time to run these tests and post your results. WIth limited availability of the machine, everyone is anxious for data. So thanks again!
That is good news that you can run the machine at higher sensitivity levels in the field. Did you happen to see how the higher sensitivity levels affected the test/depth results?
 
As is usual with most cases, as the sensitivity is increased, so is the ability to read a deeper target, but on VLF detectors, it is limited to the amount of mineralization. The ATX is not affected with salt in the water or moderate iron oxides in the matrix, so you have a great depth advantage.
 
When hunting for over 3 hours, I always charge my batteries until they are fully charged for the next hunt. I do remember charging up a year old set of rechargeables, the 1.2 volt variety. They were not the type that hold a charge for at least 3 months. I charges them up the night before, installed them in the morning, and after about 6 hours, I started getting that audio warning that my batteries were getting low. I managed about another 40 minutes, then the ATX became inoperative. Now keep in mind these were about a year old and had been charged many times and used in my AT Pro. I am guessing a new set of decent rechargeables well get substantially more time and so will a good set of alkalines . So....an extra set along for a decent hunt is always a good idea. I just want to add that the charger that comes with the ATX also has an adapter to plug into the cigarette lighter. I kept it in the car for most of the summer just in case.

I purchased this solar battery charger from Garrett a couple of years ago and have had some success with it.

inthesnowandbatteries.jpg


inthesnowandangle.jpg


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/John-Edmonton/packssmall.jpg
 
Of the pulse machines I've ran in the past...they don't air test as deep as they can actually detect in the ground. I can't explain why, but they sure do pick up targets better in the ground than they do in the air...which is almost the exact opposite of what a VLF machine does. You can get a general idea of the sound an object will make...high/low or low/high while air testing...and it will pretty much be the same tone in the ground on that object as well, so that's handy. The first time I got a pulse machine and air tested it, I was thinking to myself that I had made a costly mistake, and that these PI machines weren't what they are hyped up to be. Once I got it outside and began running it over my test garden targets...it became apparent that IN ground is much better for pulse machines than air tests.

SO...if that data holds over to the ATX, then based on what I've seen here in these charts...the ATX is about right there with the Whites TDI Pro per depth of Civil War bullets, with the pulse delay set to around 10 micro seconds, which ain't a bad thing at all. Especially if the iron check feature really works to be able to ID square nails and such from high conductive items. The TDI had the Infinium beat by several inches in depth on those size/conductivity objects, but the drawback came that the TDI didn't discriminate or ave an iron ID feature...so you dug a BUNCH of nails thinking they were bullets, etc. It sounds like the ATX has upped the game to at least match the depth of the TDI Pro, and possibly exceed it. I will have to go back and look up my air test stuff on the TDI to see where a bullet came in at, but I'm pretty sure that it was in the 11-12 inch range in the air...and slightly better WITH A TRAINED EAR..in the ground, but did not exceed 15 inches. 13 MAYBE. I know from the charts here, that the ATX has the TDI SL beat for depth. I'm thinking that a bullet only went 9-10 inches on it in the air...and barely 11 in ground.

Needless to say....I wanna see one in action!! I wont be at the DIV hunts this year, but if there are any up there, I will anxiously be awaiting the in field results. I talked to Don @ North GA Relics, and he said he was gonna try one out for a little while...IF he had one by then.
 
"I have yet another test (TEST #3) nearly completed. It will show how the non-motion mode compares to the motion mode, and also how the ATX operates with both sensitivity and threshold cranked up to near max."

I am very interested in the non-motion mode as it offers up something different than what I have used before.
 
Thanks for taking the time to make these charts up John-Edmonton I'm sure it's a lot of work. This at least gives us a universal base point for the ATX and I find this very informative (personally).

:)
 
HI John,
I notice you said "Moderate Iron Oxides" Does that mean that extreme iron minerals are a no no?

Did a couple of air test comparisons and my Infinium with the 10 x 14 mono. This combo will go just 8 inches on a 22 cal (projectile only) and 14.5 inches on a large 22kt gold ring (7g 25mm diam).

I have 4lb slabs of maghematite and iron stone through which my Inf will find 1.0g nuggs with ease (3 to 6 cm thick). The 6cm slab was pushing the envelope a bit.and there is EMI present
 
Not trying to answer for John, but this is a quote from a forum about Nugget Shooting, "We took a small nugget, don't know the weight but I'm guessing it won't register on a scale and put it on top of a hot rock and then another 2" rock on top of the nugget and the ATX won. My 4000 with the Joey didn't pick it up until 1" from the nugget." One of the moderators there did quite a bit testing with the ATX.


Fishers Ghost said:
HI John,
I notice you said "Moderate Iron Oxides" Does that mean that extreme iron minerals are a no no?

Did a couple of air test comparisons and my Infinium with the 10 x 14 mono. This combo will go just 8 inches on a 22 cal (projectile only) and 14.5 inches on a large 22kt gold ring (7g 25mm diam).

I have 4lb slabs of maghematite and iron stone through which my Inf will find 1.0g nuggs with ease (3 to 6 cm thick). The 6cm slab was pushing the envelope a bit.and there is EMI present
 
John...

I am also very interested in the non-motion mode .... I think I could envision something like "Mixed mode hunting" under certain conditions.

Also, the fortitude of the iron audio is also very interesting as well.

Cheers,

Tye
 
The guy that said they tested a nugget of gold but "didn't know the weight" and that they thought it "wouldn't register on a scale". Any piece of gold is going to be heavy enough to be weighed on a scale. LOL The 4000 wasn't really known for smaller gold anyway...seems like the GP and GPX series of machines really start to work their deep magic on gold from 1 gram on up. It wasn't until the GPX 5000 that the "fine gold" timing was added to give it better sensitivity to smaller pieces of gold. I'm not exactly sure what pulse delay settings each timing uses in the GPX series...but it's almost like it's not set too low in most of the timings due to the love for medium to larger size items...it really excels on dime size objects and larger...and the fine gold timing must use a lower pulse delay setting...to make it more sensitive to smaller objects.

The ATX still puts me in the mind of it using a lower pulse delay rate...thus it is sensitive to smaller things. It may be why it is picking up some gold chains and such. My GPX 5000 with stock 12" coil wouldn't pick up my necklaces in the 2mm range at all....not even scrubbing it against the coil. Neither would the TDI. The lowest pulse delay setting on the TDI was at 10u...and even with a small 5" mono coil, it wouldn't pick my chain up, nor any of my wife's chains. So it does make me wonder if the ATX is running a sub 10u pulse delay.
 
Here's the thing....this is a twin coil setup .... and as far as I know ... Just exactly how that works technically has not been revealed.


Cheers,

Tye
 
I can't answer that.....I don't know where the line is drawn at which point iron oxides begin giving a metal detector issues. It has been tested in some very high oxide red dirt in Australia, and had no issues.
 
An Infinium LS and a TDI-Pro both fitted with 14" DD coils Can detect a small fine Gold chain laying on the ground.
 
What do you call small Ivanll?

My Finny does not like small chains. I have an 3.6g 18kt ankle chain and my Infinium will not signal on it with any of the coils inc the 3 x 7. Not even a murmur and yet it will detect a 0.15g flattish nugget.
A 21g 9kt fob chain with T bar is not a problem.
 
Top