Is your Whites genuine?

[Rob (IL)]

This from Whites home page.

http://whiteselectronics.com/genuine.html [attachment 218393 Untitled-1.jpg]

 

[Schultzie]

Wow... that's a shame. It shows there are people who will do anything to make a buck.

 

[Elton]

My question is...Where would one be most likely buy one.. Fee-bay....????... Who's selling them, that USA buyers would have access ??.

 

[Rob (IL)]

I don't know Elton but Minelab made the same post for there detectors. If you are going to fake one pick an expensive one. Just saw a post about the $5000 dollar Minelab detector for $850, Hmm.
http://www.minelab.com/treasure-talk/counterfeit-minelab-metal-detectors

"Counterfeit White's products are being sold from unauthorized black market manufacturers and dealers from Asia. While these counterfeits may appear difficult to distinguish from a genuine White's detector, they do not perform."

 

[Larry (IL)]

The Internet spans the globe and most of the knock offs come out of China. On the world news tonight was a big report how China is hacking into our (U.S.) computers and taking our secrets and copying our technology from our state-of-the-art Warplanes on down.

 

[Mike Hillis]

The used market in metal detectors is pretty big. I know I would rather buy a used unit than a new unit, all things being equal just because of the money saved, which is often quite substantial. But the used market really hurts the dealers and mfg because they make their money from selling NEW metal detectors. The China scare could be just what the doctor ordered to limit some of that used detector market and all the mfg are trying to cash in on it. Fisher, Whites, Garrett, and Minelab are all saying the same thing, if you want genuine name with genuine performance, then you better buy new from an authorized dealer at the whatever the new price might be. Scare me into buying new and move me away from the used market, or the cheaper, developing bootleg or aftermarket.

What I would like to see is an unbiased (no mfg or dealer involvement) comparison between the OEM and the after market knock off. Is there really a difference besides just price? Dave Johnson with First Texas products commented on this once. "The question is really about how they perform." If they perform as good as the OEM but for half the price then the mfg have to justify their prices. Is the China scare really about performance or pricing? At this point we do not know because no one is trying to find out.

I hold this view because in the past I have worked for a so called bootlegger. We made and sold replacement parts from crankshafts and connecting rods, pistons and bearings for gas compressors and all for much more affordable prices to the customer. We had our own foundry, shops and sales force. The OEM's screamed and complained and tried to put all kinds of controls on the customer to keep them away from us, but the customer still chose us for the quality (equal to or better than OEM) and the prices which were often CONSIDERABLY lower than the OEM product.

I think the real issue is the\at China is making clones of equipment that is supposedly protected intellectual property, either by patent or by copyright. Which is also currently in the news and legislative halls.

HH
Mike

 

[nw1886]

Quality control is getting worse and worse on "GENUINE" Chinese produced products as a category. (Can only imagine what all can "be up" with the counterfeits.)

List of counterfeit issues I've had this year alone:

1. Auto parts
2. 1 oz. Silver Pandas
3. Huge influx of silver plated jewelry. (Marked as 925/slightly magnetic and primarily from mall kiosks but.....major retail "names" are starting to get their supply pipeline salted with better looking fakes too.)
4. HEAVILY coated 18k chain. (Tests good initially,interior metal has exact color match to 18k coating and is non-magnetic.)
5. Precision measuring and calibration equipment.
6. High pressure components to equipment.
7. Toothpaste
8. Clothing
9. NGC and PCGS "slabbed" coinage. (Only a small amount of this.)

I've only been impacted slightly due to (discovery and industry warnings) but can only imagine....... Gone are the day's when "Buy American" seems to be only patriotic gesturing. People are being hurt financially,physically and with the heightened mistrust....economically.

Buy your detector through normal channels......just like we have been doing anyways....and just a little self education on this whole issue will help keep you from getting hurt....badly. An important game is afoot and we all need to be VERY aware in these times. Us Americans have always moved fast. (Once we get our heads out of the media based confusion...and other things.)

 

[Rob (IL)]

Stealing is Stealing.[size=large][/size]

Put the manufactures out of business and who will the Chinese steal from? Who will do the research and design? Who will take care of you? Do you want Whites to repair the clones for you even if they work?

It is bad enough they steal our technology, but using the OEM name on the product is a [size=x-large]crime[/size].

I won't buy a clone [size=large]NO WAY.[/size]
[attachment 218454 Untitled-1.jpg]

 

[ak_1234]

Stealing is stealing. It is wrong. They have not invested in the research and development, the advertising, the infrastructure that goes into developing, making and selling new machines. By copying products, including the logos and the name of the companies that they are stealing from, they are causing sales to be lost from the companies that have invested in developing new products. Every detector one buys FROM THE MANUFACTURER, allows more research and development to produce the next, better detector.

After market products (loops, spark plugs) are not a problem. The core machine is still being sold. Used machines are not a problem. Somebody bought it originally, and it helps to keep the hobby alive, the sales of that machine has already benefited the company. Stealing the whole detector and selling it as a White's when it clearly is not, is wrong. White's (Minelab's, Nike, name whatever company is being stolen from) does not get any benefit from this even though they have invested in the infrastructure that allows these thieves to make a killing because they DON'T have to invest in these other things and loses income to develop the next machine that you might have wanted to get if this goes too far. It is stealing, stealing is a crime.

The used market in metal detectors is pretty big. I know I would rather buy a used unit than a new unit, all things being equal just because of the money saved, which is often quite substantial. But the used market really hurts the dealers and mfg because they make their money from selling NEW metal detectors. The China scare could be just what the doctor ordered to limit some of that used detector market and all the mfg are trying to cash in on it. Fisher, Whites, Garrett, and Minelab are all saying the same thing, if you want genuine name with genuine performance, then you better buy new from an authorized dealer at the whatever the new price might be. Scare me into buying new and move me away from the used market, or the cheaper, developing bootleg or aftermarket.

What I would like to see is an unbiased (no mfg or dealer involvement) comparison between the OEM and the after market knock off. Is there really a difference besides just price? Dave Johnson with First Texas products commented on this once. "The question is really about how they perform." If they perform as good as the OEM but for half the price then the mfg have to justify their prices. Is the China scare really about performance or pricing? At this point we do not know because no one is trying to find out.

I hold this view because in the past I have worked for a so called bootlegger. We made and sold replacement parts from crankshafts and connecting rods, pistons and bearings for gas compressors and all for much more affordable prices to the customer. We had our own foundry, shops and sales force. The OEM's screamed and complained and tried to put all kinds of controls on the customer to keep them away from us, but the customer still chose us for the quality (equal to or better than OEM) and the prices which were often CONSIDERABLY lower than the OEM product.

I think the real issue is the\at China is making clones of equipment that is supposedly protected intellectual property, either by patent or by copyright. Which is also currently in the news and legislative halls.

HH
Mike

 

[ak_1234]

I think it is safe to say, we will NOT fix clones.

 

[ak_1234]

Forgot to mention that the clones don't have to pay for customer service. Try sending a cloned machine to China for service and I can pretty much guarantee that that won't happen. We service our machines, used or new.

Some things to think about when defending the clone market.

 

[Mike Hillis]

The new "world without borders" economy that has been created by the world wide web is going to offer more and more opportunities for these type of scenarios to increase.

What I find interesting is that these Chiness clone makers actually had to tool up to reproduce these metal detector clones, be they Whites, Fishers or others. They put a lot of time and effort and thought into doing this. For the software driven machines, how did they get the source code? Did they spend hours and hours and hours hacking it, or did they get it some other way. I kind of find it amazing when I dwell on it a little, that they put all that time into something like this, created tools and molds and geared up to produce ?how many?.

Another question...who distributes them? Are they all online buys from China? How do they get into our marketplace?

I do agree. Cloning with the intent to purposely deceive someone into thinking they are buying something made by a particular company is wrong and should be stopped.

HH
Mike

 

[johno]

support americans, buy american , why support people that dont support us or our standards.... ill gladly pay a few more bucks to buy local american

 

[Carl-NC]

Mike,

This is a topic that I'm especially sensitive to. For 21 years I worked for major chip companies and watched those chip companies send all manufacturing jobs overseas, laying off many of my friends in the process. When White's advertised a job opening I was ready to jump at it just for the shear fun of the work, but when I interviewed and saw the dedication White's has to American jobs, that really clinched it for me. The philosophy here for the past 60-years is that if we can make it in-house, we do; if we can't, we still do it locally.

This philosophy has employed a lot of Americans over the years. The national abandonment of this philosophy is the number one reason America is in a severe and prolonged recession. The short-term benefit of moving manufacturing off-shore is that things become really cheap to buy -- everyone loves that! The long-term effect is that there are no manufacturing jobs, and it ripples down to everything else -- the ultimate trickle-down economics. Seems the politicians didn't think about this when they signed all those free-trade agreements. A country that doesn't actually produce things is a country that ain't worth economic squat.

To add insult to injury, foreign countries (and let's go ahead and name the elephant in the room: China) have been outright stealing American products and making blatant counterfeits. At least two different companies have completely cloned the White's GMT, including exact copies of all the plastic, the labels, and even the software. Same thing has happened with Minelab and Teknetics (at least). Yes, they put a lot of time & effort & thought into doing this, the same way that a good burglar puts a lot of time & effort & thought into cracking the vault of Hometown State Bank. Unlike the local burglar, we can know exactly who the thieves are, and there is nothing we can do about it. Seems the Chinese government is just too durn busy to do anything about it.

Right now the counterfeits perform rather poorly. They cloned our PCB, even ripped the software verbatim, but it seems they haven't figured how to properly calibrate the durn things. And some of the mechanical parts are of poor quality and easily break. Of course, that just means people who buy a counterfeit will think White's makes a crappy product -- we get shafted, and then get the blame! Meanwhile, after we've put in all the R&D, original tooling design, software development, debugging, and marketing, and then provide service and repair -- all this with American labor -- we have people who suggest that, based on what a foreign thief can sell stolen goods for, we need to justify our prices! Absolutely incredible!

What people should instead demand is that more of their goods be Made in America, and should be willing to pay higher prices to support American jobs. I recently bought a set of tires for my American-made car and found out how hard this can be, but I succeeded! Since joining White's, I've paid a lot more attention to where things are made, and I'm fairly disgusted by what we've allowed to happen. It's time to turn things around, and that ain't gonna happen when folks are eager to send money to China in order to save a few bucks on a once-in-a-blue-moon purchase like a metal detector.

Carl Moreland
Engineering Manager
White's Electronics

 

[Mike Hillis]

Hi Carl,
Thanks for joining the discussion and adding more depth to it.

I work in a mfg environment and get to see things outsourced to other countries all the time and I experience the affects of that first hand. It happens for two main reasons. One of them is because I work for a publically traded company whose shareholders demand an every increasing (or at least not declining) dividend on their investment. The other is because we are a global company with global supply and distribution lines. However I believe that the first reason is the primary reason companies end up sending mfg offshore. The ever increasing need to generate an ever increasing dividend for shareholders means an ever increasing need to lower costs by what ever means possible and that is the primary driver to move mfg offshore.

I agree with much that you stated. But not the price justification. You look down the road and see what the competition is pricing it at and mark yours accordingly. Nothing wrong with that. You put a dollar figure to a feature and add them up and juggle to keep in line with the other fellows. Only the prices keep going up, for no other reason that bubba down the road raised his. I watch it happen all the time. But reality is, that at some point, these cloners are going stop cloning, either because they are forced to by goverments, or because of personal pride. Once personal pride kicks in, then you will see better quality, better performance, and their own private label. Yes it will still look like and perform like your design but it will have their name on it. And their price. And you will have to compete with them in a global market place called the internet. For the choir (us) you can educate and preach and breed some brand loyalty. For the non-choir, It will be the amount shown after the $ symbol.

HH
Mike

 

[Larry (IL)]

One thing not talked about much but has been on TV documentaries is the foreign labor, often young girls caught in a labor trap with no way out. Often working 18-24 hour shifts. Their first months pay stays with the company to pay for the bed they sleep in and food they eat at the factory they work in. It gets worse from there. In other words, slave labor. They are allowed to leave after 90 days with little to their name but if they stay, they start to make a little bit of spending money. This particular case was in garment making but is pretty widespread.

 

[Carl-NC]

I agree that shareholder demand for more stock value drives decisions to cut labor cost -- that's a benefit in working for a private company where the shareholders (owners) are more concerned about their workforce than their personal wealth -- but, ultimately, it's in the hands of the consumer. The consumer votes on these decisions with their wallet, and far too often we vote for cheap.

I disagree with price justification. White's pricing is based very tightly on production costs and the margins necessary to maintain healthy R&D. While we certainly have to stay competitive, the fact that White's, Garrett, Tesoro, and Fisher have similar pricing owes more to the fact that we all have similar cost structures, in that we are all Made-in-USA. Prices rise because of inflation; ferinstance, Oregon minimum wage rates increase on Jan 1. When we brought out the V3 and people complained about the high price, I made a graph of the MSRP of White's top-end detector vs inflation from 1972 to 2010... it tracks almost exactly.

Personal pride will no more stop the counterfeiters than it will cause the local bank robber to open up his own Savings & Loan. They're not in it for any long-term customer-oriented business, they just want to make a fast buck on anything they can. Counterfeit GMTs are likely made in the same factory as counterfeit iPads. The Chinese gov't isn't likely to do anything until they start seeing businesses leaving China to go back to the US.

If consumers vote with their wallets to support cheap Chinese detectors then, yes, American detector manufacturers may very well have to adapt. We will likely do so by moving production overseas and laying off another segment of the American workforce. Hopefully there are a lot more people who don't want to see that happen, than do.

- Carl

 

[Neil in West Jersey]

Stealing is stealing. It is wrong. They have not invested in the research and development, the advertising, the infrastructure that goes into developing, making and selling new machines. By copying products, including the logos and the name of the companies that they are stealing from, they are causing sales to be lost from the companies that have invested in developing new products. Every detector one buys FROM THE MANUFACTURER, allows more research and development to produce the next, better detector.

After market products (loops, spark plugs) are not a problem. The core machine is still being sold. Used machines are not a problem. Somebody bought it originally, and it helps to keep the hobby alive, the sales of that machine has already benefited the company. Stealing the whole detector and selling it as a White's when it clearly is not, is wrong. White's (Minelab's, Nike, name whatever company is being stolen from) does not get any benefit from this even though they have invested in the infrastructure that allows these thieves to make a killing because they DON'T have to invest in these other things and loses income to develop the next machine that you might have wanted to get if this goes too far. It is stealing, stealing is a crime.

The used market in metal detectors is pretty big. I know I would rather buy a used unit than a new unit, all things being equal just because of the money saved, which is often quite substantial. But the used market really hurts the dealers and mfg because they make their money from selling NEW metal detectors. The China scare could be just what the doctor ordered to limit some of that used detector market and all the mfg are trying to cash in on it. Fisher, Whites, Garrett, and Minelab are all saying the same thing, if you want genuine name with genuine performance, then you better buy new from an authorized dealer at the whatever the new price might be. Scare me into buying new and move me away from the used market, or the cheaper, developing bootleg or aftermarket.

What I would like to see is an unbiased (no mfg or dealer involvement) comparison between the OEM and the after market knock off. Is there really a difference besides just price? Dave Johnson with First Texas products commented on this once. "The question is really about how they perform." If they perform as good as the OEM but for half the price then the mfg have to justify their prices. Is the China scare really about performance or pricing? At this point we do not know because no one is trying to find out.

I hold this view because in the past I have worked for a so called bootlegger. We made and sold replacement parts from crankshafts and connecting rods, pistons and bearings for gas compressors and all for much more affordable prices to the customer. We had our own foundry, shops and sales force. The OEM's screamed and complained and tried to put all kinds of controls on the customer to keep them away from us, but the customer still chose us for the quality (equal to or better than OEM) and the prices which were often CONSIDERABLY lower than the OEM product.

I think the real issue is the\at China is making clones of equipment that is supposedly protected intellectual property, either by patent or by copyright. Which is also currently in the news and legislative halls.

HH
Mike

A used detector is, for many, their initiation into metal detecting. My first was a 10 year old detector but once I had a taste it was only a matter of time before I had a thirst for one I could call my own.

 

[RTP]

I recently retired from a major Aerospace company and we had always used Norton Anti Virus to protect our computers until we found out Norton was made in China.

 

[Elton]

n/t