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Omega, Gamma or F5????????
- Thread starter tabman
- Start date
Jackpine Savage
Active member
performance in your high mineral soil. It's always good to give things a second go so please let us knwo how it works out today against the G2/T2.
HH Tom Z
HH Tom Z
First, I'll correct my mis-type in the post you quoted. Sorry about that.
As a general rule, the old, standard TR-Disc, models would reject targets in a nice, progressive order based upon their conductivities. That meant that the lovable pry-off bottle caps could be rejected rather easily. Then our metal detector designs improved, sort of, and when we gained the benefits of modern motion-based Discriminators, we also inherited an annoyance caused by bottle caps and some rusty tin and similar iron-based (magnetic-based) junk.
Today, bottle caps plague us a bunch! They could usually be rejected easily and show an Iron Target ID read-out with a regular TR-Disc. mode, but the processing required to both ground cancellation and discrimination seem to mess things up. I learned that early on ('79/'80) when messing with some of the first motion discriminators, and latter models, using digital design, seem to struggle just a little more.
I say they can be dealt with easily because most bottle caps, as a rule, are going to be located on or near the surface. All that is required are some simple techniques to pinpoint and then re-sweep the targets off-center and you can usually get an Iron audio (with models like the Teknetics) as well as a low Iron Target ID.
If you go to our society website at ahrps.org and click on Tips & Techniques you will see Audio Target Classification and can print that out (or just read it). This is a write up of basic techniques I have been using and presenting in seminars since 1981 and the two techniques that are best for getting rid of 'bottle caps' are called 'Quick-Out' and 'EPR'. I coined those terms for these techniques back then to better describe their use.
Read it and try them out on an assortment of bottle caps. Sometimes, the alloy of some newer bottle caps is still a problem, and different detectors and coils might do better than others. For me, however, these methods usually keep me from recovering a lot of common trash around old picnic tables or similar sites that abound with these things.
Monte
tabman said:
As a general rule, the old, standard TR-Disc, models would reject targets in a nice, progressive order based upon their conductivities. That meant that the lovable pry-off bottle caps could be rejected rather easily. Then our metal detector designs improved, sort of, and when we gained the benefits of modern motion-based Discriminators, we also inherited an annoyance caused by bottle caps and some rusty tin and similar iron-based (magnetic-based) junk.
Today, bottle caps plague us a bunch! They could usually be rejected easily and show an Iron Target ID read-out with a regular TR-Disc. mode, but the processing required to both ground cancellation and discrimination seem to mess things up. I learned that early on ('79/'80) when messing with some of the first motion discriminators, and latter models, using digital design, seem to struggle just a little more.
I say they can be dealt with easily because most bottle caps, as a rule, are going to be located on or near the surface. All that is required are some simple techniques to pinpoint and then re-sweep the targets off-center and you can usually get an Iron audio (with models like the Teknetics) as well as a low Iron Target ID.
If you go to our society website at ahrps.org and click on Tips & Techniques you will see Audio Target Classification and can print that out (or just read it). This is a write up of basic techniques I have been using and presenting in seminars since 1981 and the two techniques that are best for getting rid of 'bottle caps' are called 'Quick-Out' and 'EPR'. I coined those terms for these techniques back then to better describe their use.
Read it and try them out on an assortment of bottle caps. Sometimes, the alloy of some newer bottle caps is still a problem, and different detectors and coils might do better than others. For me, however, these methods usually keep me from recovering a lot of common trash around old picnic tables or similar sites that abound with these things.
Monte
I don't think I've come across any of the crown type bottle caps, just lots of the twist off and off course all the different pull tabs. I think the Omega's response time is just as fast as my Tesoro's, however I can't pinpoint nearly as well with it I kept trying to figure out where the center point of the coil was Sat but never really found it, luckily most of my finds were shallow enough that I could find them with my pro pointer and recover them that way without having to make to big of a hole.
differences between these models in the way they are designed as a whole. There is the matter of "processes" used by them, and other things so related. I'm not the techie engineer who tinkers with the making of these digital gadgets, just a fellow detectorist who sets out to learn them and then find stuff. 
I was very tired by the time I got home after sunset yesterday and I worked exclusively with the T2, G2 and Omega, all with the 11" DD BiAxial coils, and the 5" DD on the G2 and Omega. I visited three sites with the worst ground producing a Ground Balance read-out of 84.4 to 84.7 and 5 or 6 bars on the G2's Fe3O4 read-out. Two were mainly hitting dirt (mud, now with all the rain we've had, but drying a bit) and the other was basically dark sand to pea gravel sized material. All three models worked at finding targets. There were some differences to contend with, to be sure.
Of the three models, the Omega required a bit slower, more controlled sweep in the blackened sand and pea gravel. Not a crawl, but a slower sweep.
The G2, on the other hand, needed a bit brisker sweep, just as it usually does, but provided a much better response. It's all about the 'processing.'
The T2 (and I didn't get the 5" coil to use yesterday) could be swept slower than the G2, but also briskly at almost the G2's faster allowable sweep.
Of the three, the T2 produced the best depth based on lifting the search coil when a target had been located (at between 2" and 3" deep), and that was with the default '60' Sensitivity setting. I worked all three with the Discriminate level set at minimum, and used a range of Sensitivity settings. I also worked them with an increased Discrimination level and, with the Omega and T2, I used the Audio Tone ID options.
Some people think that the Alpha and Delta and Gamma and Omega are just the same electronics with the lesser models just 'dumbed-down', so to speak. They are wrong. I also worked all three of these in the All Metal mode after using the same spot on the ground to do a Fast Grab or Ground Grab. In All Metal they did work more similarly. Differences, yes, but more similar in expected results.
I didn't even take out a Delta, Gamma, AT Pro, MXT Pro or M6 yesterday, just pulling these three Teknetics units from my van for some side-by-side playing. At the end of the day, again, I located two spots and brought out my 'homestead rock' for some tests on an Indian Head cent under the 2" thick rock. The sun set with me still impressed with what I hear .... and saw. Yes, saw, as in a close to accurate VDI read-out on the Indian Head cent, just like I had for the zinc and copper cents I used the past couple of days.
The VDI reading wasn't solid, but it was close. It was usually at, or just slightly less than, the proper VDI for that coin when unburied. This did not happen with the search coils raised very far, but did work when the search coil was swept maybe
I was very tired by the time I got home after sunset yesterday and I worked exclusively with the T2, G2 and Omega, all with the 11" DD BiAxial coils, and the 5" DD on the G2 and Omega. I visited three sites with the worst ground producing a Ground Balance read-out of 84.4 to 84.7 and 5 or 6 bars on the G2's Fe3O4 read-out. Two were mainly hitting dirt (mud, now with all the rain we've had, but drying a bit) and the other was basically dark sand to pea gravel sized material. All three models worked at finding targets. There were some differences to contend with, to be sure.
Of the three models, the Omega required a bit slower, more controlled sweep in the blackened sand and pea gravel. Not a crawl, but a slower sweep.
The G2, on the other hand, needed a bit brisker sweep, just as it usually does, but provided a much better response. It's all about the 'processing.'
The T2 (and I didn't get the 5" coil to use yesterday) could be swept slower than the G2, but also briskly at almost the G2's faster allowable sweep.
Of the three, the T2 produced the best depth based on lifting the search coil when a target had been located (at between 2" and 3" deep), and that was with the default '60' Sensitivity setting. I worked all three with the Discriminate level set at minimum, and used a range of Sensitivity settings. I also worked them with an increased Discrimination level and, with the Omega and T2, I used the Audio Tone ID options.
Some people think that the Alpha and Delta and Gamma and Omega are just the same electronics with the lesser models just 'dumbed-down', so to speak. They are wrong. I also worked all three of these in the All Metal mode after using the same spot on the ground to do a Fast Grab or Ground Grab. In All Metal they did work more similarly. Differences, yes, but more similar in expected results.
I didn't even take out a Delta, Gamma, AT Pro, MXT Pro or M6 yesterday, just pulling these three Teknetics units from my van for some side-by-side playing. At the end of the day, again, I located two spots and brought out my 'homestead rock' for some tests on an Indian Head cent under the 2" thick rock. The sun set with me still impressed with what I hear .... and saw. Yes, saw, as in a close to accurate VDI read-out on the Indian Head cent, just like I had for the zinc and copper cents I used the past couple of days.
The VDI reading wasn't solid, but it was close. It was usually at, or just slightly less than, the proper VDI for that coin when unburied. This did not happen with the search coils raised very far, but did work when the search coil was swept maybe
Big Boys Hobbies
Well-known member
n/t
Jackpine Savage
Active member
I had forgotten about your homestead rock. Thanks for testing and including the updated info on the various brands/settings/coils.
While I don't have the nasty soil conditions you tested under this morning there are some beaches up here that are loaded with hot and cold rocks which cause masking problems. After hunting a stretch of Lake Michigan beach nearby with the Omega/10" concentric and then carefully rehunting the same stretch with the 11" DD (following in the same footsteps) I recovered many coins and non ferrous targets that the concentric missed due to the rocks . The coins the concentric did find tended to vary in depth from a few inches to the deeper range while the 11" DD pulled the remainder out of the 3-4" range in the rocks. After seeing this and grabbing a fist sized "cold rock" to test, the 11" DD coil was the only one to signal on a nickel placed underneath and give a close enough TID to correctly ID the nickel out to a couple inches over the rock. This was ground balancing both coils to the rock.
The G2 of course handles these rocks very well and found a 14k mans ring at the same location buried well down in the rocks at a depth of 10"-12" in disc mode! When comparing all metal modes, G2 vs Omega with the 11" DD on both, the results tend more toward the G2 favoring smaller low conductors and the Omegas' AT all metal doing a better job of ID'ing the deeper iron. Not a big difference but enough to save a fair amount of digging. Hunting the beach is more a matter of covering ground so in the case of limited time the Omega has a slight advantage in all metal and it ain't bad on rings either. I have found it to give great results with rings buried on an angle. I have a lot of test notes with various detectors on rings and the Omega's "on angle" performance tops the chart with both coils. Gotta Test the G2 some time for a comparison.
Like I said I'm glad I don't have your soil conditions to contend with.
Tom Z
While I don't have the nasty soil conditions you tested under this morning there are some beaches up here that are loaded with hot and cold rocks which cause masking problems. After hunting a stretch of Lake Michigan beach nearby with the Omega/10" concentric and then carefully rehunting the same stretch with the 11" DD (following in the same footsteps) I recovered many coins and non ferrous targets that the concentric missed due to the rocks . The coins the concentric did find tended to vary in depth from a few inches to the deeper range while the 11" DD pulled the remainder out of the 3-4" range in the rocks. After seeing this and grabbing a fist sized "cold rock" to test, the 11" DD coil was the only one to signal on a nickel placed underneath and give a close enough TID to correctly ID the nickel out to a couple inches over the rock. This was ground balancing both coils to the rock.
The G2 of course handles these rocks very well and found a 14k mans ring at the same location buried well down in the rocks at a depth of 10"-12" in disc mode! When comparing all metal modes, G2 vs Omega with the 11" DD on both, the results tend more toward the G2 favoring smaller low conductors and the Omegas' AT all metal doing a better job of ID'ing the deeper iron. Not a big difference but enough to save a fair amount of digging. Hunting the beach is more a matter of covering ground so in the case of limited time the Omega has a slight advantage in all metal and it ain't bad on rings either. I have found it to give great results with rings buried on an angle. I have a lot of test notes with various detectors on rings and the Omega's "on angle" performance tops the chart with both coils. Gotta Test the G2 some time for a comparison.
Like I said I'm glad I don't have your soil conditions to contend with.
Tom Z
jackintexas
New member
Working the Compadre real slow is a killer in heavy iron.....Jack
Bart,
When I did my initial review of the G2 and posted back the end of October, the one thing that did impress me was how well it got good stuff in building tear-downs using that 5" DD. Other similar sites, too, and most places I was working at the time were quite littered making the stock 11" DD or other coils less than useful.
Each detector can have it's good quirks and with the G2 I found the oh-so-speedy response to be impressive. I had/have several such sites to work and they are littered more than some of the trashiest railroad ghost towns I love to hunt. I used all four coils on the G2 when I was evaluating it against the Omega and Gamma and Delta. All of them worked and, as expected, all detector/coil combinations tend to get us excited or not depending upon our needs. I didn't have the more open areas to work wit the 11" at the time, other than grassy park lawns, and the G2 just isn't my detector choice for that kind of hunting.
Instead, I had been using the 5" DD on my Omega a lot while hunting these trashier sites and wondered how the G2 would do at them. More than impressed was the only answer I could come up with. Don't get me wrong, I like the 5" on both the Omega and Gamma and am very successful with it. My first use of the 5" DD on my Omega last year was in a short stretch of sidewalk repair that I had worked and then re-worked with the 9
When I did my initial review of the G2 and posted back the end of October, the one thing that did impress me was how well it got good stuff in building tear-downs using that 5" DD. Other similar sites, too, and most places I was working at the time were quite littered making the stock 11" DD or other coils less than useful.
Each detector can have it's good quirks and with the G2 I found the oh-so-speedy response to be impressive. I had/have several such sites to work and they are littered more than some of the trashiest railroad ghost towns I love to hunt. I used all four coils on the G2 when I was evaluating it against the Omega and Gamma and Delta. All of them worked and, as expected, all detector/coil combinations tend to get us excited or not depending upon our needs. I didn't have the more open areas to work wit the 11" at the time, other than grassy park lawns, and the G2 just isn't my detector choice for that kind of hunting.
Instead, I had been using the 5" DD on my Omega a lot while hunting these trashier sites and wondered how the G2 would do at them. More than impressed was the only answer I could come up with. Don't get me wrong, I like the 5" on both the Omega and Gamma and am very successful with it. My first use of the 5" DD on my Omega last year was in a short stretch of sidewalk repair that I had worked and then re-worked with the 9
Big Boys Hobbies
Well-known member
The G2 might just be as good as the hype its getting right now. Thanks so much for your quick review of it. Coming from an expert like yourself it really helps us all on our decisions of what to get. We all appreciate the time you take to answer questions and help us all out! We are all ears!
Glad you compared it to the gamma and the omega also. I use the Omega as a demo and really like it for coins.
Had a good time talking to you on the phone the other night. Thanks for the call.
Glad you compared it to the gamma and the omega also. I use the Omega as a demo and really like it for coins.
Had a good time talking to you on the phone the other night. Thanks for the call.
