Questions about BEAST Mode

[BobOso]

I'd say the legend is the KISS system once you get a grasp of it.

I agree to dissagree on that one Sergei. If things were simple, they would be in order, not in disorder. Perhaps if my mind was wired that way it would work, but unfortunately not.

 

[SergeiNY]

Here is the video I did on bE Beast Mode.

After I watched the video, I actually got more questions than answers. When you have some free time, could you please test the Beast mode with only fringe targets, for which The Beast mode is designed for, such as a Dime, Nickel, square nail and hand-wrought nail? Of course, testing freshly buried nails will not be close to the real-life situation due to the lack of halo effects. However, I believe that if you bury these targets deep enough to produce no VDIs or VDI=1 and iron buzz responses accordingly, this would be the best opportunity to demonstrate the advantage of the Beast mode over the Discriminate modes. And I also recommend setting the Recovery Speed to 1 in all tested modes, and the Sensitivity to maximum possible for the tested Field-M1 Discriminate mode. It would be interesting to see at what IR setting the coin responses would sound high pitched and the nail responses would sound typically iron. Looking forward to seeing your new test results!

 

[SergeiNY]

I agree to dissagree on that one Sergei. If things were simple, they would be in order, not in disorder. Perhaps if my mind was wired that way it would work, but unfortunately not.

The XP Deus is the best example of a complete anti-KISS metal detector concept. It is a disaster for any beginner-user. It takes even an experienced detectorist at least 5 seasons to just understand how the Deus' key features work and interact with one another. The Legend allows the weathered user to master it in one season! I think it's very close to the KISS system, isn't it? I believe your mind is completely fine since you can analyze how it's wired!

 

[JCR TX]

@SergeiNY I had a chance to run the bE Beast Mode on my mild test bed deeper targets. I see no need to bury any fresh fringe depth targets as I already have several that are 5+ years in the ground. Overall, Beast mode does well giving good audio response but still lacking meaningful TID. The regular Tone ID modes such as Field using the also new dt Deep Target adjustment gives weaker tone ID but it has the ability to give more audio information using the available tone bins. The TIDs seem a little better but still not good enough to be conclusive. No matter what, you have to decide to dig or not based on Tone with either setup. It will take more time in the field using V1.15 to work out the details of each. Still, V1.15 is a solid advancement in performance for The Legend and has raised the bar for other machines, especially working in mineralized soil.

 

[SergeiNY]

@SergeiNY I had a chance to run the bE Beast Mode on my mild test bed deeper targets. I see no need to bury any fresh fringe depth targets as I already have several that are 5+ years in the ground. Overall, Beast mode does well giving good audio response but still lacking meaningful TID. The regular Tone ID modes such as Field using the also new dt Deep Target adjustment gives weaker tone ID but it has the ability to give more audio information using the available tone bins. The TIDs seem a little better but still not good enough to be conclusive. No matter what, you have to decide to dig or not based on Tone with either setup. It will take more time in the field using V1.15 to work out the details of each. Still, V1.15 is a solid advancement in performance for The Legend and has raised the bar for other machines, especially working in mineralized soil.

Great video but it didn't answer my question: how do the responses from fringe nails differ from the fringe coin responses? From experimenting with the Beast mode on fringe nails in my test garden (in mild soil), I got no difference between fringe nails and fringe coins! That was why I asked you to run a couple of tests with fringe nails to see whether or not you would get the same results. As for the 'dt' feature in target separation or unmasking coins partially masked by nails, using the 'dt' in my tests has turned out to be detrimental as the 'dt' simply eliminates the tonal difference. Can you please show the unmasking effect of the 'dt' in your tests?

 

[sube]

Great video but it didn't answer my question: how do the responses from fringe nails differ from the fringe coin responses? From experimenting with the Beast mode on fringe nails in my test garden (in mild soil), I got no difference between fringe nails and fringe coins! That was why I asked you to run a couple of tests with fringe nails to see whether or not you would get the same results. As for the 'dt' feature in target separation or unmasking coins partially masked by nails, using the 'dt' in my tests has turned out to be detrimental as the 'dt' simply eliminates the tonal difference. Can you please show the unmasking effect of the 'dt' in your tests?

Fringe coin fringe nail the nail will ID deeper than the dime . The nail is getting help from the mineral in the ground . The dime is loosing depth because of mineral the dime will only ID correctly if it's return signal is larger than the ground itself . When at fringe depth it is either dime or nail . sube

 

[JCR TX]

@SergeiNY I don't have any fringe depth nails or small iron in my test garden. I have nails at 4 & 6 inches and big iron at 12 & 18 inches to simulate my typical relic hunting sites. For what I have, the IR setting where the tone begins or completely goes to the lower tone is: 4" 10d nail @2 or 3, two 6" 12d nails @ 3, a 8" deep 2"X3" piece of flat stove cast iron @3-4, a 12" deep complete horse shoe @ 3-4, and a 18" deep large piece of flat cast iron stove @ 4.
In addition to the actual "fringe depth" coins I tested in the video above, a 8" deep Nickle will low tone @3-4 IR but a 8" deep Copper Cent won't low tone until IR is set to max 5. The conductivity of the target seems to be a meaningful factor in the IR response. This is also shown on the 18" deep large flat iron as it tends to consistently give a false high tone in normal motion tone ID modes.
As far as the effect of dt on unmasking in iron, higher levels(5-6) distort the audio including the high tone. It does the same on deeper isolated targets too. Examples of both of these is shown in a prior video I did on the Legend dt in Minerals & Iron. The benefit I am seeing from dt is mainly in working in mineralized ground. It does help a small but noticeable amount on unmasking in iron trash if one can get past the audio distortion.

 

[SergeiNY]

Fringe coin fringe nail the nail will ID deeper than the dime . The nail is getting help from the mineral in the ground . The dime is loosing depth because of mineral the dime will only ID correctly if it's return signal is larger than the ground itself . When at fringe depth it is either dime or nail . sube

I meant a fringe coin and a fringe nail both not showing any VDIs, and each just producing an iron-buzz signal in any Discriminate mode. My question: will the Beast mode indicate them with different tones?

 

[SergeiNY]

@SergeiNY I don't have any fringe depth nails or small iron in my test garden. I have nails at 4 & 6 inches and big iron at 12 & 18 inches to simulate my typical relic hunting sites. For what I have, the IR setting where the tone begins or completely goes to the lower tone is: 4" 10d nail @2 or 3, two 6" 12d nails @ 3, a 8" deep 2"X3" piece of flat stove cast iron @3-4, a 12" deep complete horse shoe @ 3-4, and a 18" deep large piece of flat cast iron stove @ 4.
In addition to the actual "fringe depth" coins I tested in the video above, a 8" deep Nickle will low tone @3-4 IR but a 8" deep Copper Cent won't low tone until IR is set to max 5. The conductivity of the target seems to be a meaningful factor in the IR response. This is also shown on the 18" deep large flat iron as it tends to consistently give a false high tone in normal motion tone ID modes.
As far as the effect of dt on unmasking in iron, higher levels(5-6) distort the audio including the high tone. It does the same on deeper isolated targets too. Examples of both of these is shown in a prior video I did on the Legend dt in Minerals & Iron. The benefit I am seeing from dt is mainly in working in mineralized ground. It does help a small but noticeable amount on unmasking in iron trash if one can get past the audio distortion.

I think comparing the responses from the fringe nail and the fringe coin in the Beast mode is the only way to actually confirm or refute the effectiveness of this mode. I watched your early video on the 'dt' feature and left a bad comment which has somehow disappeared. I stated that any Air Test involving coin+nails combinations has nothing in common with what happens in the ground with various types and concentrations of ground minerals, and therefore should be never used to show the detector's capabilities. If you make the same setup of a coin and two nails as the one you used in your video but in the ground with the coin buried 4-5 inches deep, you will not hear the coin. And if you set the 'dt' to 6, you will hear a high tone even if you remove the coin. The 'dt' kills the tonal difference and therefore shouldn't be used for target separation and coin unmasking. And I think your settings weren't appropriate for your test garden conditions because your Legend's reactions to coins without using the 'dt' and when using it didn't differ much. In fact, it was even worse with that dime at 10".

 

[JCR TX]

@SergeiNY I encourage you to continue your testing and look forward to reading your article on the Legend.
As for your comment on my dt video, I read it and answered it. My "air test" set up is not intended to show a detector's capabilities. It is to show a detector's behavior and that of different settings. I use it as a learning tool because it is a visible & adjustable 3D simulation of real world target orientation. You are correct in that the Ground will change the results, sometime drastically. I try to point this out in my videos(and in my Posts on a Forum). Perhaps I need to have a written script so I don't miss anything instead of just working off the top of my head. As far as in ground unmasking/separation, I have a Copper Cent buried in my mild dirt bed at 6" with 3 nails around & above it "Monte" style. Each nail at a different depth & orientation. It is not an easy target but the Legend hits & calls it quite well. Better than some of my other machines. On this target, dt @6 seems to help a small amount but it certainly isn't much. I think if this target set up was in my higher mineral red dirt bed the effect would be more noticeable. For me, dt seems more helpful working in mineralized dirt. It seems much less dramatic on targets in milder soil. Higher dt settings do distort the audio, This is a drawback that needs to be considered. This maybe what you are experiencing in losing the high tone. I have not noticed dt causing any false high tones.

 

[SergeiNY]

@SergeiNY I encourage you to continue your testing and look forward to reading your article on the Legend.
As for your comment on my dt video, I read it and answered it. My "air test" set up is not intended to show a detector's capabilities. It is to show a detector's behavior and that of different settings. I use it as a learning tool because it is a visible & adjustable 3D simulation of real world target orientation. You are correct in that the Ground will change the results, sometime drastically. I try to point this out in my videos(and in my Posts on a Forum). Perhaps I need to have a written script so I don't miss anything instead of just working off the top of my head. As far as in ground unmasking/separation, I have a Copper Cent buried in my mild dirt bed at 6" with 3 nails around & above it "Monte" style. Each nail at a different depth & orientation. It is not an easy target but the Legend hits & calls it quite well. Better than some of my other machines. On this target, dt @6 seems to help a small amount but it certainly isn't much. I think if this target set up was in my higher mineral red dirt bed the effect would be more noticeable. For me, dt seems more helpful working in mineralized dirt. It seems much less dramatic on targets in milder soil. Higher dt settings do distort the audio, This is a drawback that needs to be considered. This maybe what you are experiencing in losing the high tone. I have not noticed dt causing any false high tones.

I'll of course test the 'dt' feature and the Beast mode more at other locations to compare all the obtained results. But I wish Nokta provided detailed descriptions of these functions. Even during testing at my test garden, there are so many variables (moles pushing my seeded targets into their tunnels is one of them )) that it's impossible to draw firm conclusions. If I had a highly mineralized ground patch, I would certainly set up a combination of coins and nails. Unfortunately I don't. The GB read-out for my soil is 12-16. Nevertheless, I observe advantages, albeit not as pronounced as yours, that both features provide when used in combination with other key settings. So, as usual, it's all about fine-tuning the Legend to the site conditions and desirable targets sought. Have you tried to experiment with a combination of 'dt' and 'IF' with different settings to see whether there is any noticeable relationship between them? I'm gonna try it on real challenging sites on Monday if the weather permits. But I definitely should focus on writing my monster article now instead of playing with the Legend in dirt! Yes, I can say it is a fantastic machine based on crazy things it can do, which I have discovered so far. Though, there is not a word about them in the manual - which puzzles me. HH!

 

[BobOso]

The XP Deus is the best example of a complete anti-KISS metal detector concept. It is a disaster for any beginner-user. It takes even an experienced detectorist at least 5 seasons to just understand how the Deus' key features work and interact with one another. The Legend allows the weathered user to master it in one season! I think it's very close to the KISS system, isn't it? I believe your mind is completely fine since you can analyze how it's wired!

Depends on ones logic, as one having programming experience I disagree, the Deus is in order, the Legend fell out of order once it started adding extra features like the beast mode.
I've never worked in scramble mode, but have always followed what is called a flow chart, even if it is just in my head. If I work on a gas motor, everything needs to work in a sequence, If you understand the Flow or sequence of the Deus, it will make sense, if you cannot, you will find many for sale. The Legend skips this flow (beast mode as an example) jump to gold mode, push this and get depth. Well BS with that, if you put it in gold mode, I am looking for gold, not coins or relics. Also in my opinion, (yes I know what an opinion is) the beast mode is useless. If you want extra depth using any detector, first just use ALL METAL MODE and crank your sensitivity up.
I currently use the Manticore, the layout also flows in a pattern