watched a video and the guy arrowed over to sensitivity on the live menu and pressed zoom and shows the gain, all metal and disc on the left and on the right it shows signal loss and noise. How do you get the V3i to show the signal loss and noise?? All I get is the left side pop up of gain, all metal and disc.
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Sensitivity Zoom Screen on V3i
- Thread starter shafer44
- Start date
ok, been playing more with the situation. when you have Sensitivity in the Live Controls and you arrow over to it and then press ZOOM, then the two menus pop up. However, if you arrow down, you will see that the Probe menu disappears when you arrow down a couple of times. If you continue to arrow down, the Probe menu will come back????? Go figure. I love my V3i, but it has some quirks that I cannot understand. I must have arrowed down one time when in the pop up menu and never even knew that there was a probe screen.
It isn't a quirk, the percentages only show in the RX choice. As you use the arrows you are just scrolling in and out of the RX choice.
The probe signal % reading is not really showing signal loss. What it is showing is how close the detector is to approaching the overload point. The V3i can only handle so much incoming signal before the internals are swamped and the detector overloads. In your example 14.5% indicates you have plenty of room for more signal.
The probe signal % reading is not really showing signal loss. What it is showing is how close the detector is to approaching the overload point. The V3i can only handle so much incoming signal before the internals are swamped and the detector overloads. In your example 14.5% indicates you have plenty of room for more signal.
Rob,
so what the person that had the video was saying was that the signal should be 20% or less and if it was over that, you could adjust your filters to clean it up a bit more. So, is this guys rendition wrong? Could you elaborate a little on what it is actually telling me. What if the signal was something like 35-45%
so what the person that had the video was saying was that the signal should be 20% or less and if it was over that, you could adjust your filters to clean it up a bit more. So, is this guys rendition wrong? Could you elaborate a little on what it is actually telling me. What if the signal was something like 35-45%
On the right side of the screen are two live “signal quality”
numbers. The “Signal” number tells you what percent of the
total signal range is currently being received; that is, how much
“residual” signal is being seen. Ideally, if you hold the loop in
the air away from metal targets, this number should be zero.
However, it is impossible to make a perfect loop null so this
number is usually at least a few percent. Ground mineralization
also creates a residual signal, so as you lower the loop to the
ground you may see an increase in the Signal percentage.
So you are seeing signal from ground and null (residual) as signal%, not signal loss.
In most cases you should adjust the Rx Gain to maintain a
residual Signal of no more than 30-40%. V3i will overload at
60%, so it’s still possible that large shallow targets will cause an
overload with this much residual signal.
So the higher the residual signal the less room you have for good signal before the V overloads.
The Noise number represents the amount of spurious noise;
that is, noise that comes and goes, as opposed to the residual
signal which is continuous. This is the noise that is often audible,
especially in Pinpoint mode, as chatter. A high noise level
(more than a few percent) should persuade you to consider another filter.
numbers. The “Signal” number tells you what percent of the
total signal range is currently being received; that is, how much
“residual” signal is being seen. Ideally, if you hold the loop in
the air away from metal targets, this number should be zero.
However, it is impossible to make a perfect loop null so this
number is usually at least a few percent. Ground mineralization
also creates a residual signal, so as you lower the loop to the
ground you may see an increase in the Signal percentage.
So you are seeing signal from ground and null (residual) as signal%, not signal loss.
In most cases you should adjust the Rx Gain to maintain a
residual Signal of no more than 30-40%. V3i will overload at
60%, so it’s still possible that large shallow targets will cause an
overload with this much residual signal.
So the higher the residual signal the less room you have for good signal before the V overloads.
The Noise number represents the amount of spurious noise;
that is, noise that comes and goes, as opposed to the residual
signal which is continuous. This is the noise that is often audible,
especially in Pinpoint mode, as chatter. A high noise level
(more than a few percent) should persuade you to consider another filter.
rob i say being lost because that is precisely how its written in the manual. to me it makes sense , if i had a reading of 35 percent in the house ,coil not on the ground ,i would suggest that the v is transmiting 3 freq 2.5 7.5 and 22.5 ,and its looking for those freq to be recieved . so it emi jumps in an alters the recive by adding its own signal then the v is not getting its own signal so it show a loss. the ground is acting like a filter .too many minerals and all the signal is not coming back . by rights a target can do the same. of course i dont really know im just guessing using logic and a little knowlege of metal detectors. really my statement is based on the manual with to me seems very clear about signal loss screen and what it means
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
The manual really needs to be corrected, the lost signal theory is really misleading but I understand why they put it in that context, "lost signal" is easier to understand for most people.
All of your transmitted signal is "lost" so to speak, and none of what is transmitted by the coil is returned. The RF energy sent into the ground by the coil induces a magnetic field known as eddie currents in a metallic object and it is the induced magnetic field information in the object that is detected and analyzed by the detector.
You can Google for more info on how metal detectors work or read Carl Moorelands book, Inside the Metal Detector. Carl was the Managing Engineer for White's at the time of the V series development. (Good read.)
All of your transmitted signal is "lost" so to speak, and none of what is transmitted by the coil is returned. The RF energy sent into the ground by the coil induces a magnetic field known as eddie currents in a metallic object and it is the induced magnetic field information in the object that is detected and analyzed by the detector.
You can Google for more info on how metal detectors work or read Carl Moorelands book, Inside the Metal Detector. Carl was the Managing Engineer for White's at the time of the V series development. (Good read.)
Martin, there would be no loss of depth, just more possible overloading on large and shallow targets.
Postal, my explanation is pasted right out of the VX3 manual. The VX3 and V3i are electrically identical, The VX3 manual was the last and best written manual.
We have one and only one control over transmitted signal and that is boost.
We are working with the signal produced by the Eddy currents of the target itself.
Postal, my explanation is pasted right out of the VX3 manual. The VX3 and V3i are electrically identical, The VX3 manual was the last and best written manual.
We have one and only one control over transmitted signal and that is boost.
We are working with the signal produced by the Eddy currents of the target itself.
Ok, since this was my post to start with, let me state my understandings and concerns as to answering my original question first. When you arrow over to Sensitivity on the Live Menu, and press ZOOM, the RX gain, Txboost, all metal and disc shows up along with the live menu that has a box to check so that you will see gain, all metal and disc when you normally choose Sensitivity on the live menu and press ENTER. When in the ZOOM Sensitivity menu popup screen, If you press the arrows up or down, you will see that the Probe screen appears at some point, but disappears as you arrow up or down after that. For novices and the general layman person, there is nothing said anywhere that tells us that this will happen. I tried to find the way of showing the Probe menu all thru the V3I manual and did not find anything. I inadvertently found out by experimenting with the up and down arrow. If anyone out there that doesn't know this happens to highlight Sensitivity and press Zoom, they too will wonder where the Probe screen is, if the choice is on the wrong line.
Next, if I understand right, lets say we are hunting a very trashy lot and we have Rx gain at 10, all metal at 55 and disc at 85. First we have a hard time ground balancing, because there is so much trash on the ground and in the ground. Now, we start detecting in search mode and we have chatter, noisy signals all over the place and general confusion. if we go to Sensitivity on the live menu and press Zoom and make sure we are seeing the Probe menu, we see a high signal percentage. This to me means that that is the percentage of available signal that is not contributing to finding my target, so it is LOST, I also look at it as the "corrupted percentage of signal that is not helping me". If I change my settings to lower Rx gain to say 6 and disc to 75, then ground balance, swing the coil a bit and then arrow to Sensitivity and press ZOOM, my percentage of signal that was LOST, now is much lower.
I believe this is the right interpretation of the percentage signal. Not all of us "other people" are experts, nor do we THINK we are experts, so any extra indication that we can get to help us better understand what is too noisy, why we are not running "smooth" and all the other terminology that the brand new novice is not really understanding. I used the numbers above for gain and disc as an example, I realize in real life conditions, I would lower the disc a little, try that, then lower the gain a little and try that. I know from a layman's view point that I could lower both way down and then the percentage would be low, but I probably would not find much. It seems that this will be a good tool to check yourself to see if your experience factors and knowledge of area factors are right or not.
By the way, this was done outside (NOT WATCHING TV UNDER MY CEILING FAN)
Next, if I understand right, lets say we are hunting a very trashy lot and we have Rx gain at 10, all metal at 55 and disc at 85. First we have a hard time ground balancing, because there is so much trash on the ground and in the ground. Now, we start detecting in search mode and we have chatter, noisy signals all over the place and general confusion. if we go to Sensitivity on the live menu and press Zoom and make sure we are seeing the Probe menu, we see a high signal percentage. This to me means that that is the percentage of available signal that is not contributing to finding my target, so it is LOST, I also look at it as the "corrupted percentage of signal that is not helping me". If I change my settings to lower Rx gain to say 6 and disc to 75, then ground balance, swing the coil a bit and then arrow to Sensitivity and press ZOOM, my percentage of signal that was LOST, now is much lower.
I believe this is the right interpretation of the percentage signal. Not all of us "other people" are experts, nor do we THINK we are experts, so any extra indication that we can get to help us better understand what is too noisy, why we are not running "smooth" and all the other terminology that the brand new novice is not really understanding. I used the numbers above for gain and disc as an example, I realize in real life conditions, I would lower the disc a little, try that, then lower the gain a little and try that. I know from a layman's view point that I could lower both way down and then the percentage would be low, but I probably would not find much. It seems that this will be a good tool to check yourself to see if your experience factors and knowledge of area factors are right or not.
By the way, this was done outside (NOT WATCHING TV UNDER MY CEILING FAN)
shafer44 said:Ok, since this was my post to start with, let me state my understandings and concerns as to answering my original question first. When you arrow over to Sensitivity on the Live Menu, and press ZOOM, the RX gain, Txboost, all metal and disc shows up along with the live menu that has a box to check so that you will see gain, all metal and disc when you normally choose Sensitivity on the live menu and press ENTER. When in the ZOOM Sensitivity menu popup screen, If you press the arrows up or down, you will see that the Probe screen appears at some point, but disappears as you arrow up or down after that. For novices and the general layman person, there is nothing said anywhere that tells us that this will happen. I tried to find the way of showing the Probe menu all thru the V3I manual and did not find anything. I inadvertently found out by experimenting with the up and down arrow. If anyone out there that doesn't know this happens to highlight Sensitivity and press Zoom, they too will wonder where the Probe screen is, if the choice is on the wrong line.
OK, you have stated your concern that people may not know this.
Next, if I understand right, lets say we are hunting a very trashy lot and we have Rx gain at 10, all metal at 55 and disc at 85. First we have a hard time ground balancing, because there is so much trash on the ground and in the ground. Now, we start detecting in search mode and we have chatter, noisy signals all over the place and general confusion. if we go to Sensitivity on the live menu and press Zoom and make sure we are seeing the Probe menu, we see a high signal percentage. This to me means that that is the percentage of available signal that is not contributing to finding my target, so it is LOST, I also look at it as the "corrupted percentage of signal that is not helping me".
What you are hearing is signals that are being added to the target signal. You are not losing any of the target signal you are adding extra signals. These added signals add to to the total signal and brings the detector closer to an overload condition. These extra signals compete with the target signal and makes the target signal harder to hear.
If I change my settings to lower Rx gain to say 6 and disc to 75, then ground balance, swing the coil a bit and then arrow to Sensitivity and press ZOOM, my percentage of signal that was LOST, now is much lower. The unwanted signals are reduced.
You believe that the target signal is reduced from 100% - 14.5% to a 85.5% target signal, or signal loss. What signal% is telling you is 14.5% of unwanted signal is being added to the unreduced target signal.
We all know that as signal% approaches 60% the detector overloads. If signal% was showing lost signal the total signal would be reduced and would actually take us farther from overload.
I believe this is the right interpretation of the percentage signal. Not all of us "other people" are experts, nor do we THINK we are experts, so any extra indication that we can get to help us better understand what is too noisy, why we are not running "smooth" and all the other terminology that the brand new novice is not really understanding. I never claimed to be an expert and have never called myself an expert.
I used the numbers above for gain and disc as an example, I realize in real life conditions, I would lower the disc a little, try that, then lower the gain a little and try that. I know from a layman's view point that I could lower both way down and then the percentage would be low, but I probably would not find much. It seems that this will be a good tool to check yourself to see if your experience factors and knowledge of area factors are right or not.
By the way, this was done outside (NOT WATCHING TV UNDER MY CEILING FAN) Good to know.
Remember, my answer is word for word from Whites as stated in the VX3 manual.(page 6-5) This was the last manual written by Carl before he left Whites and is a MUST read.
not to be arguing any more that we all are anyway, how would I know what is in a VX3 book if I have a V3i?? Why would I even download the VX3 pdf file if I have a V3I? I realize it could be another "source" of information, but I have a V3i and everything I need to know about it SHOULD be in the V3i manual. How many people are going to buy an $1800 V3i and download the VX3 manual to use the V3i??
"We all know that as signal% approaches 60% the detector overloads." This is highly an assumption...."everyone knows what it means to ASS-U-ME" This forum is to help people better understand their machines, not get in arguments.
Some of us are pretty hard headed and these LOST, corrupted, mixed signal percentages are STILL masking what we are trying to find. I know, I won't assume that everyone knows, that if my gain and disc are too high, I am going to have a very noisy and chatty experience as the detector picks up every metallic signal that I have not discriminated out, be it a horseshoe or a bb, If I lower both, I will have a quieter machine experience, but maybe I might miss hearing or seeing a signal for a very tiny or deep target. I want to find all that is there to find, but I know that if I set my setting too high, I will go crazy with the noise and may dig a barrel full of trash trying to find that one treasure. Experienced detectors know that aluminum targets hit in the same audio tone and VDI as quarters, dimes and other goodies, so we did lots of aluminum cans, shredded alum and such trying to find those good targets. I believe that if we have this one more "checkpoint" to use and compare to, then maybe we can better "tune" our machines to give up the best hunting experience for that day and maybe find "some" of the targets.
"We all know that as signal% approaches 60% the detector overloads." This is highly an assumption...."everyone knows what it means to ASS-U-ME" This forum is to help people better understand their machines, not get in arguments.
Some of us are pretty hard headed and these LOST, corrupted, mixed signal percentages are STILL masking what we are trying to find. I know, I won't assume that everyone knows, that if my gain and disc are too high, I am going to have a very noisy and chatty experience as the detector picks up every metallic signal that I have not discriminated out, be it a horseshoe or a bb, If I lower both, I will have a quieter machine experience, but maybe I might miss hearing or seeing a signal for a very tiny or deep target. I want to find all that is there to find, but I know that if I set my setting too high, I will go crazy with the noise and may dig a barrel full of trash trying to find that one treasure. Experienced detectors know that aluminum targets hit in the same audio tone and VDI as quarters, dimes and other goodies, so we did lots of aluminum cans, shredded alum and such trying to find those good targets. I believe that if we have this one more "checkpoint" to use and compare to, then maybe we can better "tune" our machines to give up the best hunting experience for that day and maybe find "some" of the targets.