The more I think about it , the more I think this is what happened to me this last weekend .....My partner and I hunted a park that we frequent ....It's never an easy hunt ....Always a long time to find Silver , and most of the time we don't .....I purposely brought the Sovereign to the Park as I wanted to Sniper out some Silver if it was there, since I know that the Soveriegn can go just as deep if not deeper than the E Trac in certain conditions .......My buddy had his E Trac and I had my Sovereign and we were never too far away from each other , so he would call me over to check a target before he dug it , and I would do the same ......One target he came up on he was reading a Silver number and tone ..... He waved me over to check it out as he did most of the day, and I was always able to read his targets ....This one was different ....I tried and tried and tried to get a Silver tone and number ....NO cigar !!....I made many different adjustments to the Sovereign , and was NOT able to get any high tones other than false tones .... He would turn his machine on and go over the area , and he even unplugged his phones and let me hear a nice Flutey Silver tone that was undenyable !!....and with numbers to match ...... Try as I may , I could not get the tone , nor the Silver numbers to come up ..... The E Trac has a "See Thru" feature whereby it can see thru various targets to give you a reading on good targets ....I was not nulling and no iron was present according to the numbers of the targets that I was getting around the area where he was getting a Silver number and tone ......He ended up digging the hole about 7 inches or so deep , and pulled out a Silver Barber dime from the hole ...... Not far from this hole, I also heard a clear Silver tone .....He checked it out with his E Trac and said it sounded and looked to be Silver ....I dug down right around the same depth as he did for his dime, and I pulled out a nice 1911 Barber dime !!...... The difference , thinking back , was that my dime had no other targets around it .....I remember thinking how quiet the area was and then out of the blue, that SWEET SILVER TONE came thru on my phones ...... His target however had targets all over the place , and I couldn't get a Silver tone to save my life ......I did get some falsing tones since I raised my Senistivity so high to try to get a good Silver tone to no avail ....BTW ....I had Iron Mask on and off and tried swithcing everything on the Sovereign that I could to hear this coin to no avail ......This is what I think was happening ........
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Silent Masking ......
- Thread starter synthnut
- Start date
JASONSPAZ1
New member
I have experienced this scenario as well. And I feel you are right on target with agreeing with the article in the link.
Good post.
Take care
HH
Jason
Good post.
Take care
HH
Jason
Jim , that is spot on what happened to you/us. Although that article was written in 2000 10 years ago. It still applies to 99% of the machines on the market today. No matter what you try and do with the Sov. Our ETracs have been engineered to combat this problem. Its not perfect but it works as you have seen.
Tony in FL
Member
Wow - that is an eye opening article! Thanks for pointing it out.
Jim, all Minelab would need to do to make the Sovereign able to compete with the Explorer/E Trac in iron is expand the lower discrimination range of iron. Even on the Sovereign with the wide upper range you can take a pull tab and completely discriminate it out and not hit a coin two inches below the tab but if you use the wide zone of the tab on the disc. or notch and set it just at the point where the tab just goes silent with a pop or a click on every other swing you will now hit the coin under the tab. The Explorer's already have the wide iron range and this is what Minelab tried to do with the iron mask switch on the GT but it is to narrow and can't be adjusted for different iron conditions.
I ran Iron Mask on and off , and could STILL not hit the coin , so this lines up with what you're saying ....If it's a matter of an extended iron range , what's to stop the range from being expanded via the descrimination being run higher rather than a notch, and Neil , what does the gain have to do with this ? .......That's also why the E Trac with it's expanded Matrix was able to hit the coin ...... I can see now that the Explorer/ E Trac Matrix has a lot more than what meets the eye ..... Thanks for the explanation ...Jim
I've read that before but it is the sort of thing that needs to be read now and again lest we forget. This time something jumped out at me, this:
Any pulltab will almost always give at least a two way signal.. so I am going to get excited the next time I get any oddball, pulltab or any midrange TID that only hits from one direction... I bet some parks are full of signals like that because most people won't dig a tab, foil, or oddball signal that only hits from one direction... I will be digging them. I am going to try really hard to not forget this.
Also, I re-read my SovereignGT maunal last night and it plainly says, in the Queen's english that when hunting in trash you moght want to turn IM off. It also say (it's last word on the subject) that it may be better to turn IM off in mineralized ground... WHAT?I have been doing in wrong for sure. It does say that IM may get you a little more depth but I dn't need a little more depth nearly as much as I need more seperation.
Thanks to Crazyman for getting me thinking on this.
BTW, there is no doubt that the E-TRAC is really amazing. It does what it does so well and so easily. What coil was on the ET in question and did you get him to pinpoint it then set your coil right on it and do a small wiggle?
J
Any pulltab will almost always give at least a two way signal.. so I am going to get excited the next time I get any oddball, pulltab or any midrange TID that only hits from one direction... I bet some parks are full of signals like that because most people won't dig a tab, foil, or oddball signal that only hits from one direction... I will be digging them. I am going to try really hard to not forget this.
Also, I re-read my SovereignGT maunal last night and it plainly says, in the Queen's english that when hunting in trash you moght want to turn IM off. It also say (it's last word on the subject) that it may be better to turn IM off in mineralized ground... WHAT?I have been doing in wrong for sure. It does say that IM may get you a little more depth but I dn't need a little more depth nearly as much as I need more seperation.
Thanks to Crazyman for getting me thinking on this.
BTW, there is no doubt that the E-TRAC is really amazing. It does what it does so well and so easily. What coil was on the ET in question and did you get him to pinpoint it then set your coil right on it and do a small wiggle?
J
Critterhunter
New member
Jim, see the other thread for a more lengthy explaination of why you might not have been able to hit that coin. Mainly, my money is on coil selection. The Pro Coil is a huge improvement over the stock 10" Explorer coil, and while IMO the 10" Tornado on the GT is a big improvement over those, it's still not as good as the Pro Coil or an SEF. The better seperation, ability to run at higher sensitivity settings, ability to handle iron or ground minerals better (with less nulling), and the seemingly improved depth of the 12x10 (thus far, with more tests to do) even at the same sensitivity setting as the stock 10" coil....All of these things can alter the results. One might think "Yea, but the SE or Etrac come with the Pro Coil, while the GT does not." True enough, but then again you can buy a GT and a 12x10 new and still be a bit cheaper if you think of it that way...Not to mention buying eithier the GT or the 12x10 used (either one).
I think of the Pro Coil as an upgrade to the Explorer or even the Etrac. Much of the improved seperation, less falsing, stability, depth, etc...to those machines I would give merit to the coil rather than some huge improvement in detector electronics. As I've said, the 12x10 on my GT feels like somebody sped up the clock speed of the computer. Improved seperation, quicker recovery, faster or more "reactive" target response with less coil movement to cross over and between targets, and so on. I bet some (I said "SOME") of the improved processor speed on these machines is more due to the coil's ability than anything else.
What I'd really like to see would be a GT with the 12x10 go head to head with an Etrac or SE with the Pro Coil. That's where separation and depth would really be interesting to read about. You have to promise me that when you do get around to buying a 12x10 for the GT (if you plan to?) that you'll compare some of these undug targets in the field with those coils going head to head.
Just the same, some times an explaination doesn't exist. Just like the Etrac hit that silver dime when the GT for some odd reason could not, there will be days when the reverse is true. Something as obscure as coil eddy current patterns of one coil versus the other can mean the difference between which catches a coin in it's "net" while the other has a harder time with it. Trash, ground matrix, mineral content, the coin being on edge in an odd way. All of those things can factor in to the mystery. I have read threads where guys have had trouble getting the Etrac or Explorer to provide stable target IDs at a site for whatever reason, while the Sovereign was rock solid and came up with the goodies. Like I said, whichever way the wind blows...
I'd once again say that sensitivity can be a very important factor. Raising it to the edge to try to get that coin to talk isn't automatically the best solution. Target ID can get erractic or even null even if the machine is stable. Factor in nearby trash or iron and I'm sure we've all heard that often riding sensitivity much lower in trash can often unmask coins better. When sensitivity is increased the coil tends to "light up" objects around it along with the desired target. This situation can often be more dramatic when the target is well less than fringe. A coin at 6 or 7" deep with nearby trash can reveal it's self much better with a lower sensitivity setting than a high one. As sensitivity gets higher the coil takes in more and more picture from the sides. That's why when I use the S-5 I often either hunt in Auto or with a fairly low sensitivity setting. I like to do this at spots where I don't expect silvers to be all that deep, 6 or 7" at the most (well within the ability of the S-5 even in Auto or with sensitivity riding real low). In situations like that my main concern is maximum seperation, not ultimate depth. With the heavy trash in such areas and typical packed ground conditons due to foot traffic the oldest coins are on average still only 5 to 7" deep. The strategy then is not to max out depth. If it was then I'd be using a larger coil. My main goil is optimum seperation ability. Yes, the S-5 is already doing that regardless of how high sensitivity is, but by taming down sensitivity I can increase the focus of that "laser" to an even finer point. Also, even excluding the impact of nearby trash, turning down the reach of that beam can often mean at least better target signals. One site in particular that comes to mind has all the above factors (heavy packed soil, 6 or 7" deep silvers, well over 100 years of trash). Along with those things this site also happens to have lots of tiny gravel and black sand/hot rocks. With less reach and width to the signal on the S-5 via sensitivity I'm also not stewing the target signal in as much ground matrix which can cost target quality.
There will be days, I guarantee you, when your GT will see a silver coin much better than the Etrac. Heck, even lessor machines I've used over the years have got me coins at sites that my other high end machines plain out missed. Why is that? Sure, some are probably due to me just plain missing them, while others I know I must have gridded over time and time again. Then again, some can be explained by masking iron in the soil that finally washed away enough to reveal the target mixed in with it. I once read a theory on this that makes sense. A guy related a site where he has worked with the same machine over the years. Ten years later with the same machine he's now popping "easy" silver out of this site. His only explaination was that rusted junk like old bottle caps finally broke down and washed away enough in the soil to reveal those previously masked targets for him. That makes sense, and gives further motivation to those who think everything has been worked to death and will never get better. Off subject, so my point is that one machine can and will get targets better or easier than other for any given reason on any given day. I really would have liked to see you're Etrac swept over that silver dime you found a month or two back that the GT unmasked next to junk.
I think of the Pro Coil as an upgrade to the Explorer or even the Etrac. Much of the improved seperation, less falsing, stability, depth, etc...to those machines I would give merit to the coil rather than some huge improvement in detector electronics. As I've said, the 12x10 on my GT feels like somebody sped up the clock speed of the computer. Improved seperation, quicker recovery, faster or more "reactive" target response with less coil movement to cross over and between targets, and so on. I bet some (I said "SOME") of the improved processor speed on these machines is more due to the coil's ability than anything else.
What I'd really like to see would be a GT with the 12x10 go head to head with an Etrac or SE with the Pro Coil. That's where separation and depth would really be interesting to read about. You have to promise me that when you do get around to buying a 12x10 for the GT (if you plan to?) that you'll compare some of these undug targets in the field with those coils going head to head.
Just the same, some times an explaination doesn't exist. Just like the Etrac hit that silver dime when the GT for some odd reason could not, there will be days when the reverse is true. Something as obscure as coil eddy current patterns of one coil versus the other can mean the difference between which catches a coin in it's "net" while the other has a harder time with it. Trash, ground matrix, mineral content, the coin being on edge in an odd way. All of those things can factor in to the mystery. I have read threads where guys have had trouble getting the Etrac or Explorer to provide stable target IDs at a site for whatever reason, while the Sovereign was rock solid and came up with the goodies. Like I said, whichever way the wind blows...
I'd once again say that sensitivity can be a very important factor. Raising it to the edge to try to get that coin to talk isn't automatically the best solution. Target ID can get erractic or even null even if the machine is stable. Factor in nearby trash or iron and I'm sure we've all heard that often riding sensitivity much lower in trash can often unmask coins better. When sensitivity is increased the coil tends to "light up" objects around it along with the desired target. This situation can often be more dramatic when the target is well less than fringe. A coin at 6 or 7" deep with nearby trash can reveal it's self much better with a lower sensitivity setting than a high one. As sensitivity gets higher the coil takes in more and more picture from the sides. That's why when I use the S-5 I often either hunt in Auto or with a fairly low sensitivity setting. I like to do this at spots where I don't expect silvers to be all that deep, 6 or 7" at the most (well within the ability of the S-5 even in Auto or with sensitivity riding real low). In situations like that my main concern is maximum seperation, not ultimate depth. With the heavy trash in such areas and typical packed ground conditons due to foot traffic the oldest coins are on average still only 5 to 7" deep. The strategy then is not to max out depth. If it was then I'd be using a larger coil. My main goil is optimum seperation ability. Yes, the S-5 is already doing that regardless of how high sensitivity is, but by taming down sensitivity I can increase the focus of that "laser" to an even finer point. Also, even excluding the impact of nearby trash, turning down the reach of that beam can often mean at least better target signals. One site in particular that comes to mind has all the above factors (heavy packed soil, 6 or 7" deep silvers, well over 100 years of trash). Along with those things this site also happens to have lots of tiny gravel and black sand/hot rocks. With less reach and width to the signal on the S-5 via sensitivity I'm also not stewing the target signal in as much ground matrix which can cost target quality.
There will be days, I guarantee you, when your GT will see a silver coin much better than the Etrac. Heck, even lessor machines I've used over the years have got me coins at sites that my other high end machines plain out missed. Why is that? Sure, some are probably due to me just plain missing them, while others I know I must have gridded over time and time again. Then again, some can be explained by masking iron in the soil that finally washed away enough to reveal the target mixed in with it. I once read a theory on this that makes sense. A guy related a site where he has worked with the same machine over the years. Ten years later with the same machine he's now popping "easy" silver out of this site. His only explaination was that rusted junk like old bottle caps finally broke down and washed away enough in the soil to reveal those previously masked targets for him. That makes sense, and gives further motivation to those who think everything has been worked to death and will never get better. Off subject, so my point is that one machine can and will get targets better or easier than other for any given reason on any given day. I really would have liked to see you're Etrac swept over that silver dime you found a month or two back that the GT unmasked next to junk.
Yes it does recommend that. If iron mask worked so great as Critter thinks then why would someone who was doing the original field testing for Minelab turn iron mask off when hunting in thick iron? That field test was published and would have been the perfect time to show the world just how well it worked. The answer will come when the fat lady sings.
Critter,
I will agree with you that there are times when the Sovereign will do better than the E Trac .....This was not one of those times .....As I said earlier , I really don't think that it was a matter of depth ....My partner was hitting this coin without any problems at all ...It was not like he was hitting an "iffy" signal ...It came thru loud and clear in the Discrim mode on the E Trac ...It also came thru loud and clear when iin Quick Mask ..... I adjusted my Soveriegn many different ways ....Iron Mask on and off .....Sensitivity up and down ..... band one / band two ..... Threshold up and down .... I was not being rushed , so I explored a LOT of the various settings on the Sovereign, and the only high tones I got at all where falsing tones .... There were NO repeatable tones at all ....This coin was not deep enough to make the Sovereign even break a sweat !!!..... It was clearly being masked !!.... It was just plain NON existant to the Sovereign, yet rang loud and clear on the E Trac ..... I've heard from may folks about the extended range of descrimination on the Explorer's and E Trac's , and how the Sovereign can just not compete with those ranges under certain conditions ....It seems like I am always running into these strange conditions , and it's testing me and pushing me to learn more about my craft .....All the PM's that i 'm getting are all basically saying the same thing , so there must be something to it ....If the coin were down to where it was just a whispy tone , I would think that maybe it was a depth issue , but this coin was ringing like a church bell on Christmas !!.... It was not breaking up or anything ...It was loud and clear .....To get NOTHING from the Sovereign tells me that it was not a depth issue ..... I wish that this could be remedied by a coil change, but I don't think that this would be the issue .... It would certainly not hurt to have another coil on the Sovereign , but in this case , I don't think that it would have mattered ...... Thanks for your reply .... Jim
I will agree with you that there are times when the Sovereign will do better than the E Trac .....This was not one of those times .....As I said earlier , I really don't think that it was a matter of depth ....My partner was hitting this coin without any problems at all ...It was not like he was hitting an "iffy" signal ...It came thru loud and clear in the Discrim mode on the E Trac ...It also came thru loud and clear when iin Quick Mask ..... I adjusted my Soveriegn many different ways ....Iron Mask on and off .....Sensitivity up and down ..... band one / band two ..... Threshold up and down .... I was not being rushed , so I explored a LOT of the various settings on the Sovereign, and the only high tones I got at all where falsing tones .... There were NO repeatable tones at all ....This coin was not deep enough to make the Sovereign even break a sweat !!!..... It was clearly being masked !!.... It was just plain NON existant to the Sovereign, yet rang loud and clear on the E Trac ..... I've heard from may folks about the extended range of descrimination on the Explorer's and E Trac's , and how the Sovereign can just not compete with those ranges under certain conditions ....It seems like I am always running into these strange conditions , and it's testing me and pushing me to learn more about my craft .....All the PM's that i 'm getting are all basically saying the same thing , so there must be something to it ....If the coin were down to where it was just a whispy tone , I would think that maybe it was a depth issue , but this coin was ringing like a church bell on Christmas !!.... It was not breaking up or anything ...It was loud and clear .....To get NOTHING from the Sovereign tells me that it was not a depth issue ..... I wish that this could be remedied by a coil change, but I don't think that this would be the issue .... It would certainly not hurt to have another coil on the Sovereign , but in this case , I don't think that it would have mattered ...... Thanks for your reply .... Jim
crazyman ,
There was trash EVERYWHERE in this park !!..... There were crown caps, screw caps , pull tabs , etc .....Anything you could think of was in this ground ....There were even rust halo's abound all around ....This is a NYC park !!..... My buddies program was a VERY HEAVILY discriminating program ..... The only openings in the Matrrix were for Gold , Silver , and high coins ......No pennies except for Indians were even in this program ..... I ran my Soveriegn from no descrimination up all the way to the Silver range ..... I even ran a notch in small increments ........It had a be a range or Iron that could just not be discriminated out by the Sovereign , that the E Trac was able to handle ...... I really can't think of anything else it could have been ......Jim
There was trash EVERYWHERE in this park !!..... There were crown caps, screw caps , pull tabs , etc .....Anything you could think of was in this ground ....There were even rust halo's abound all around ....This is a NYC park !!..... My buddies program was a VERY HEAVILY discriminating program ..... The only openings in the Matrrix were for Gold , Silver , and high coins ......No pennies except for Indians were even in this program ..... I ran my Soveriegn from no descrimination up all the way to the Silver range ..... I even ran a notch in small increments ........It had a be a range or Iron that could just not be discriminated out by the Sovereign , that the E Trac was able to handle ...... I really can't think of anything else it could have been ......Jim
Do you really believe that the Sovereign will unmask targets better than the E-TRAC??
The SovGT is a good machine, especially on the beach but if you find it unmasks better than, as good as, or almost as good as the E-TRAC.. well, your ground is a lot different from mine. I have never seen anything near the unmasking ability of the ET.
J
The SovGT is a good machine, especially on the beach but if you find it unmasks better than, as good as, or almost as good as the E-TRAC.. well, your ground is a lot different from mine. I have never seen anything near the unmasking ability of the ET.
J
The E Trac not only has better descrimination, but it also has a feature called " Trash Density" that can be put on "High " or "Low " ...."High" Trash density is a feature that will allow the E Trac to "see thru " other targets that are around the GOOD target that you are trying to hit, EVEN if the bad target is larger than the Good target .... Between the High Trash Density setting and the better discrimination ( not to mention the other controls that can be used ) , the E Trac goes beyond what the Sovereign can do as far as unmasking targets ..... I witnessed it first hand ......Granted this doesn't occur every day , but in my case , it was a matter of whether or not I heard a Silver coin or not !!....I'd say that is pretty significant ...Jim
