Sounds?

[AK in KY]

I have read in some post lately to ignore the Smart Find and go only by the tone. I assume this would be the same for digital. My question - Is it possible for the sound or tone to be the same for 2-29 and 15-29 on the digital screen? The second set of numbers reflect the cross hairs being "pulled" to the left by surrounding iron.
My understanding was they would not sound the same. My reasoning being that each set of digital numbers has its own tone.
Hope someone can set me straight.

AK in KY

 

[Steve(MS)]

Its according to whether you use conduct or ferrous sounds. With the ferrous sounds the tone will be different, with conduct sounds they will sound very similar.

 

[MattR]

QUOTE:-

[quote AK in KY]I have read in some post lately to ignore the Smart Find and go only by the tone. I assume this would be the same for digital. My question - Is it possible for the sound or tone to be the same for 2-29 and 15-29 on the digital screen? The second set of numbers reflect the cross hairs being "pulled" to the left by surrounding iron.
My understanding was they would not sound the same. My reasoning being that each set of digital numbers has its own tone.
Hope someone can set me straight.

AK in KY[/quote]
----------------------------------------
Hello AK.

The pitch of the sound you hear, depends on your choice of two things.

(1) The target's CONDUCTANCE and its FERROUS factor (inductance).

(These factors are evident when using DIGITAL display.)

(2) The choice of SOUNDS you select from the AUDIO menu.

(a) CONSTant.......A single mono tone for accepted targets.
(b) CONDUCTance.Variable pitch. 29..High,dropping with lower numbers.
(c) FERROUS..Variable pitch. 29..LOW, increasing with lower numbers.

So the answer to your post would depend on what settings you are using.

If you use CONSTANT......then you hear only the basic mono-tone.

If you use CONDuctance..you'll hear a High pitch, for the 29 factor.

If you use FERROUS.. then its a HIGH tone for 2 or medium for 15,
and if FE were 29, it would be a very LOW tone.

If you were hunting some gold items of moderately low conductivity and ferrous 'reading'....
(NO..it doesn't mean the gold contains iron)..then FERROUS SOUNDS would possibly produce the higher pitch.

Here in the UK, we would search for THIN section hammered silver coins using the Ferrous sounds mode'

Why?...Well a thin, small silver showing as Fe 5 Con 15, would produce a good HIGH pitch....Much better than being in Conductive sound mode.

Just do some experiments in all three SOUND modes, using a nail and a non-magnetic coin, and a small, low carat gold ring.........MattR.UK.

p.s.

The developing consensus amongst Explorer II user, to depend on sound rather than display, highlights a growing awareness by users, of a functional 'constraint' in the design.
I've commented on this in earlier posts in the main Explorer forum.

The display cursor or Digital VDI is 'lethargic' in certain circumstances. Usually where ferrous is affecting the detector.

The sound follows the changing situation, but the VDI/cursor stays locked in the 'last-ferrous' state.
This is a design /software flaw introduce by some short-sighted person in the Minelab development lab.

It is more alarming in the Quattro, but in a more subtle and derogatory sense....WHAT THE EYE DOESN'T SEE, OR THE EAR DOESN'T HEAR...the user is blissfully unaware of !!!!!!

A good detector....with a flaw.

 

[AK in KY]

Matt/Steve - Thanks for your reply. But, and maybe my EX is ailing, 31/31, 31/28, 0/31, 0/30 all have a very similar pitch in Ferrous sounds.

AK in KY

 

[MattR]

Hello again AK.

QUOTE:-

But, and maybe my EX is ailing, 31/31, 31/28, 0/31, 0/30 all have a very similar pitch in Ferrous sounds.
..........................................

AK. You are correctly specifying another problem inherent in the EXP II.

Somewhere, possibly on the main Explorer forum, I raised this quandary, and asked if I was the only one experiencing it.

Only one guy acknowledged the problem.
Perhaps the others don't operate in that mode, and so are not genuinely aware it exists.

So your EX is not ailing in the 'gone faulty' sense, rather it is just another program/design 'problem'.

I can't remember at this moment, but maybe I once found a way of limiting this annoying problem?

What happens AK if you extend the 'nail' pattern out a little further?

I will try that tomorrow, and if it helps then I'll report back.

....................MattR.UK.

p.s. Cody. If you are reading this post....then I will say "Hello", and wish you goodnight. Here in the UK, we have just advanced our time one hour forward.......So it's midnight and zzzzzzz time.

Hopefully, we boys are going out tomorrow to play with our toys.

Maybe I'll fill my flask with some of that elephant stew you mentioned in your post....Take care and keep well..for we care about you.

 

[Bill W.]

>The developing consensus amongst Explorer II user, to depend on sound rather than display, highlights a growing awareness by users, of a functional 'constraint' in the design.
>I've commented on this in earlier posts in the main Explorer forum.

Going by sound is not a developing consensus. That recommendation has been around since months after the original S & XS were released. So, it is almost as old as the machine itself. I can assure almost all of the seasoned Explorer users only go by sound. If you don't you're missing targets.

-Bill

 

[Bill W.]

Going by sound is the way to go especially in iron. Sound ID is virtually instantaneous in it's response irregardless if a threshold is present or not. The LCD will NOT update until the threshold returns. So, if the LCD doesn't update until the threshold returns the only way to ACCURATELY identify targets is by sound ID. Don't get caught up in the fact the LCD says this ID or that ID. Totally ignore the LCD it is very unreliable in ID especially in iron or trashy areas. Conduct sounds are easier to use for looking for coins. Because pulltabs and foil are lower in tone. Copper and silver will sound higher than most common trash.

-Bill

 

[AK in KY]

Bill - Thanks for your response. But, if you go by sound on my EX you will dig tons of iron. 31/28 sounds exactly like 2/30 on my machine in either ferrous or conduct. I believe the reason is the EX is picking up the 28 & 30 in the examples above. Seems to me either my machine is not right(which minelab says it is fine) or Matt is correct about the Flaw.

AK in KY

 

[Cody]

No matter what we read I seriously doubt that any of our experts could tell the difference between these reading using only sounds. This is the fallacy with the idea of only using sounds. There are on consensus of opinions that I know of about which to use but if there is I would like to see the data to support this assumption.

A ferrous reading of 31 will sound the same no matter what the conductive reading is if using ferrous sounds. Any hit in the IM-15 zone has the same pitch if using ferrous. If using conductive/size then any hit at the across the top of the screen has the same pitch as any hit to the left if using ferrous.

How do I know? I have measured the sounds with a chromatic instrument that will measure the pitch and the human ear is not going to be able to tell the difference. There are actually only a few notes but at different pitches.

So, what do we do? I would suggest that we first go by sounds to locate a target. Then pinpoint and find the center of the target. Switch to motion mode and sweep the target and again go by sound. If necessary use the display, digital or Smarfind as preferred to further define the target. There can even be some value to Icons. An example where this helps is some Indian heads will bounce from the upper left to upper right of the screen. Sounds can be confusing but when a visual aid is used it is very obvious what is going on. Another example is sounds that have mixed pitches. A visual indication such as digital is very helpful in seeing what we are hearing. Iron mask is a valuable aid and we each find the combinations of audio and visual that works best for each of us. We then add sweeping from different directions, coils sizes, and what ever it is that tells us we should dig.

Find the combination of tones, pitch, and visual indications using test targets and then in the field and then it is fairly easy to ID a target. Some target cannot be identified simply because the detector has no way of knowing the difference. The tone, pitch, and visual indication will be the same. I find it amazing that a user will post that they can tell a tone for two different targets when they sound the same tone. Now, if we add other clues then we can further id the targets but I think the idea we can do it with tones alone is somewhat more of a bragging rights than anything.

May I also suggest that I would pay attention to MattR as he and Jeff Foster have taught me more solid information based on fact than anyone I have met in all these years of detecting. Both are engineers, have written several books on detecting, and are very successful in their profession and in our hobby. It is very easy for a novice to think we see and have the answers and miss it by a mile.

I don't mean that to be unkind to anyone but these guys know what they are talking about and are not just drive by shooters. I have read their books and communicated with them on the forums and by direct email for years and have great respect and trust in their suggestions.

 

[Bill W.]

See one of my other recent posts. I am not sure if it was on here or the Explorer forum. But, in CONDUCT sounds you need to put your variability on 8. This will make iron a higher tone than silver. This will allow you to tell iron falses from silver. Besides if you go by sound and pay attention you'll soon pick up on the 'edge' or screech iron has to it. You're digging iron because the edge of the coil is hitting it. When you're learning sounds you should only dig targets that cross... meaning North to South and East to West. Iron sounds good (especially when you're not familiar with sound ID) from one direction but if you rotate it will either disappear or be very broken up. Big iron or round iron are exceptions. You will get to a point with sound ID you can tell coins hit without rotating. I've been using the Explorer for 5 years and can tell you I did very little iron. But, it dig take me dig quite a bit of iron to make me learn what was a good hit and a bad hit. BTW, you can also get high tones using ferrous tones but they will not rotate. I've used both conduct and ferrous tones quite extensively.

-Bill

 

[Bill W.]

Cody,

Where was your variability when you made these measurements? Using conduct sounds and variability on 8 I can assure you I can tell iron from coins BEFORE I rotate. I've dug alot of one way coins HEARING this difference. Definitely, not a novice on the Explorer as you may remember. There is alot of hours on my Explorer... were not talking in the hundreds of hours but thousands.

-Bill

 

[Bill W.]

I also wanted to add that being into Astronomy I've heard of visual observations that are not supposed to be able to happen. Messier 81 is NOT supposed to be a naked eye object. Although people have reported and used green lasers to prove that they are able to see M81 with their naked eye. M81 is small and you could not casual point to the general area at hit it with a laser. The human body is a wonderful thing at times and defies conventional measurements. My nephew has been measured at better than 20/20 vision. Perhaps, acute hearing is one of the reasons some do better than others with the Explorer. My hunting buddy does has certain frequency ranges that he's apparently lost the ablility to hear. He truely struggles with the Explorer in heavy iron with the same setup as I use.

-Bill

 

[Cody]

I frankly don't know where the variability is at this moment as the Explorer is with my son. I am speaking in general and that most users cannot tell the difference. A coil being symmetrical and depending on on the soil and how it is in the soil depends on if we can tell. Bill consider this. Unless you dig all targets how does one know if they are correct when they say this is a coin and this is iron? The fact is we really don't we only assume we are correct. I have taken the Explorer too many times and had slowly dug all targets after I had said I would have or not have dug the target. When I saw how often I was wrong going just by sound I then changed my mind and realized as Steve indicates above that it is a percentage game. Some great finds have come when I got out of the box of this is iron or trash and dug it up only to be confused as to why it gave the sound I was hearing.

That is just the first problem with going only by sounds. Another is we simply don't hear sounds the same. Each user, in my opinion, finds the variables and setting that tells them to dig or not and that is the best for that user. This is why I am so cautious about saying if you set the Explorer this way and go by sounds or not then you will do great. It just don't work that way. We have this tendency to think what works for me in my soil is going to work for everyone. What you can do and what I can do can be very different from what a new user can do and you know that. How does a guy that does not have thousands of hours playing a guitar that cannot tune one by ear tune his guitar? He uses a chromatic tuner or guitar tuner or has someone else tune it. By hearing the sound and looking at a meter anyone can tune a guitar. This illustrates my point in that most cannot go strictly by sound which is why Minelab has something other than just sound for those that cannot which from what I read is most users.

 

[MattR]

Hi there Bill.

Thanks for your post on concencus....WOW!

QUOTE***Going by sound is not a developing consensus. That recommendation has been around since months after the original S & XS were released. So, it is almost as old as the machine itself. I can assure almost all of the seasoned Explorer users only go by sound. If you don't you're missing targets.***

-Bill
----------------------

What an indictment for the EXP series ! Ignore the display?

I'm sure you don't mean that in totality?

I agree, only if the circumstances collate with those mentioned by AK, and reiterated by myself.

Thanks again for your welcome comments......MattR.UK.

 

[Bill W.]

I do agree with what you're saying. But, there are those of us that do hunt totally by sound and do quite well. I would swear on a stack of Bibles I go totally by sound. I am extremely adapt at picking up stuff. I was always the guy that never took books home in school and got straight A's. As long as I showed up for class and paid attention I did well. I am sure I should put a 'disclaimer' with my going by sound posts that not everyone can do it... The Explorer has such a unique sound output that I can tell a modern screwcap from a penny... I don't know. Whether it's actually the broadness of the sound or a slight difference in pitch. There are other things I can usually pick up on that are too involved to post. What kind of hits confused you in iron after you dug them? I know a nickel or a close in conductivity target by a piece of iron will sound like a copper coin (to me). But, if I walk around the target I can usually pick out a good hit from a nickel type target beside iron.

Even beyond that as you mentioned... ground conditions can play a part in how sounds ID and LCD ID act. As we've discussed in the past about how at some place I hunt and you and your son have hunted how ID can get 'pushed' down on deep targets at an ID lower than you would think. If you go back and look at some of my posts you'll see I recommend carrying at least a penny... that can help some people 'tune' to what they're looking for. I think both of us bring alot up alot of valid points. You're the more scientific and more cautious. I am more the hands on... not that you aren't. I guess I assume sometimes that everyone can hear and do what I am doing with my Explorer. But, I hunt with two Explorer users. I can follow them and find coins. Doing good with the Explorer is like anything in detecting... part machine and part human factor.

-Bill

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

But only after hearing a "good" sound.

There are many signals that you just know are going to be good without looking, but most are of an iffier nature where the additional info gained from watching the cursor dance can make the difference between to dig or not to dig. For that is the question.

After zillions of hours on the machine I still cannot differentiate between iron falsing and coins mixed with iron with 100% certainty. Most of the time the gut feeling is right, but I still get down and probe with my periscope to check it out.

I have dug quite a few coins spills over the years. Some of them have been in heavy trash where I had to keep going over the area many times from different angles to get any kind of signal, and then dug signals that I would normally pass on that turned out to be coins. If you stopped and checked out every signal that crappy during normal detecting you would die of old age before finishing one site.

Bottom line. Probably hear 2-3 potential coin sounds per sweep, probably only think 10% of them are good enough sounding to warrent a look at the screen, probably only bother to probe for 25% of those after watching the cursor dance. And probably 25-50 percent of those turn out to be good targets. But my point about the coin spills means that some of those initial crappy signals could in fact be coins.

I think the 2 axis display is one of the Explorers strongest points; if I didn't have the display and went by sound alone I would be digging much more trash, or more likely would only dig the most "text book" signals and leave many more coins in the ground.

Chris

 

[Bill W.]

You know, I really don't care if anyone on this forum follows what I am saying. Take it for what it's worth or not worth to you. I am starting to understand why alot of the seasoned Explorer users have left this site. 'Nuff said.

-Bill

 

[Steve(MS)]

and also I give a quickscan of the depth meter at those times, it is a great clue on whether to dig or not. Regards.
Steve(MS)

 

[Steve(MS)]

I think part of what you are seeing the the wrap around effect, that is from the -16 area will sometimes go over to the other side and cause a chirp. Well, that is just my theory, I started to add that to my other post but didn't.
Steve(MS)

 

[AK in KY]

Bill - I think your last sentence hits it on the head. I still don't have an answer to my initial question or was not smart enough to pick it up. So I will ask it in a different way. There are suposed to be 1024 different tones on the EX. What I want to know is, will a penney that reads text book sound the same as a penny that is "pulled" to the left by iron? In other words the cursor will be in two different locations, will they sound the same or not? Thanks

AK in KY