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TTF........ unlocking the mystery (Removing sticky status) Ray.

Digger

Constitutional Patriot
Staff member
As a member of Minelab's Treasure Talk Team, I have an opportunity to share my thoughts and suggestions with other Minelab users. Although many of my Treasure Talk blog posts concern the X-TERRA, my most recent post centers around using two-tone ferrous on my E-TRAC. Here is a link to Part one of that blog post. http://www.minelab.com/usa/treasure-talk

HH Randy
 
....a great start to explaining TTF Randy.....good article!!!
One thing I would say is that even though I agree that a 12-44 target will give a high tone in either Conduct or Ferrous 2 tones.......if you introduce iron.....the tones will discriminate for you
in Ferrous mode. In Conduct.....iron and your 12-44 target will sound the same leaving you to constantly monitor the screen.
That's why people use 2 tones in Ferrous.

Can't wait for part 2 mate!!

There are so many other factors that contribute to my settings I believe.

DEEP ON/OFF.....FAST ON/OFF.....VOLUME GAIN.......patterns?.......target blending/separation......nulling.....recovery lag.....they all need to be covered.......

Thanks for taking the time to write it up......your XTerra write ups are gold too mate!!!

Gaz.
 
Thanks Gaz, And you're correct, it is just a start. You and I have very similar thoughts on most of the E-TRAC's functionality. And I appreciate the comment you've made concerning the "other factors". In my opinion, the key for E-TRAC users is to recognize that there is a difference between features and functionality. Features sell detectors...... functionality is how well you understand and apply the benefits from those features. Hopefully I am able to explain those differences in some of my upcoming blog posts. Thanks again. HH Randy
 
Good article Randy, I have to agree with Gaz, in conductive a 12-44 will sound the same as iron sounds, so running an open screen with conductive simply doesn't work. I have seen people say they can HEAR the difference between a 12-44 and a 30-44 in conductive, and I just don't buy it, I have tried over and over to use conductive sounds with an open screen and there is no way to tell the difference.

Therefore when I am hunting a site with a ton of iron, TTF is just my method of choice to pick out goodies from the iron. The more I use it, the more I like it. When I get to a new site, I always start in conductive with a modified coin program to test the waters so to speak, if the site is iron laden, I always end up in TTF.
 
Some great stuff in the Minelab Treasure Talk blog. Thanks for your contribution.

If you could, either here or in the blog, would you explain why the Etrac provides better separation between ferrous and non-ferrous targets when the screen is open? Why does recovery from a null make the machine less capable than when an open screen is being used? I know everyone says that a null limits recovery time. I just can't understand why. To me the detector is sensing the target in both situations and just stops all audio response on a rejected target. I don't see why a null is so limiting in terms of separation. I sent an email to Minelab long ago asking this question and never got a reply. Maybe you have access to some of the other technical folks at Minelab and can get them to weigh in on this.

Thanks for any help you can provide on this.
 
Thanks for the post Digger. I always look forward to your insights and conclusions. You helped me tremendously with my X-Terra.
 
Terry, You are correct. A 44 conductive tone is a 44 conductive tone. As I've posted numerous times, there is no difference between the audio tone of a 12-44 and a 36-44 IF you are listening to the conductive properties. The conductive tones are pre-programmed to reflect the conductive value of 44. Similarly, there is no difference between the ferrous audio tones of a 12-28 and a 12-42 where the audio tone is pre-programmed to reflect the ferrous value of 12. I agree with your analysis that listening to the conductive tones without any discrimination would be painful, to say the least. And that is exactly the point I made in the Treasure Talk blog posts concerning TTF. For the record, the process of submitting my Treasure Talk blog posts involves me writing an article and Minelab posting it to Treasure Talk. I don't control how they "break it down" or how many parts it is released. That is entirely their call. But if you hang in there and read the following "parts", you'll find that I have addressed the issue of conductive tones and minimal discrimination. And, you'll also see that our hunting "habits" are very similar. Thanks for the response.
HH Randy
 
dgc said:
Some great stuff in the Minelab Treasure Talk blog. Thanks for your contribution.

If you could, either here or in the blog, would you explain why the Etrac provides better separation between ferrous and non-ferrous targets when the screen is open? Why does recovery from a null make the machine less capable than when an open screen is being used? I know everyone says that a null limits recovery time. I just can't understand why. To me the detector is sensing the target in both situations and just stops all audio response on a rejected target. I don't see why a null is so limiting in terms of separation. I sent an email to Minelab long ago asking this question and never got a reply. Maybe you have access to some of the other technical folks at Minelab and can get them to weigh in on this.

Thanks for any help you can provide on this.


DGC good point I think its big secret why...
 
Simply based on my observations, I believe there are two reasons some feel a detector is "less capable" when nulling takes place. And in my opinion, both have more to do with the user than the machine itself.

First off, I think we all have a tendancy to sweep slower if we are listening to tones opposed to no sound at all. For whatever reason, when we set a group of targets to reject, we are mislead to believe the detector is ignoring those targets. That is not the case. The detector is detecting them. By adding target rejection, we've simply programmed it to not provide an audio response on those targets. This can be proven when you consider the TID still shows ferrous and conductive values on rejected targets. As to why we sweep slower? I suppose human nature tellls us that in order to not "miss anything", we need to register each sound, and decipher them separately. Hearing continued silence does not do that for us.

Secondly, I believe it involoves the user's attention to those changes of sound more than it does the electronic differences of the detector. For example, if you listen very closely with an open screen, you can still hear a very slight lapse in the Threshold sound before the target's audio response is heard. For the sake of discussion, I'll call that a" brief pause of silence". When you pass the coil over a target who's conductive or ferrous properties have been set to reject, it will null. Again, for the sake of this discussion, I'll call that null silence. And if you pass the coil over a target who's ferrous and/or conductive properties have been set to accept and provide a tone, it will provide a tone based on either the conductive or ferrous value of that target. We call that target tone. So let's say you are hunting with some discrimination. You are sweeping along, listening to the sound of the Threshold. When you pass over a target that has been rejected, it will null out. So you have threshold - a brief pause of silence- null silence - another brief pause of silence- back to threhold. When the coil passes over a target who's properties have been set to reject, the lack of any sound (nulling plus entry pause silence and exit pause silence) is longer in duration than if the target you passed over had made an actual tone. Absence of sound is not something that will make you slow down your sweep. On the other hand, if you are hunting with an open screen, every target you pass over will make a sound. Either a tone representing the ferrous properties or a tone representing the conductive properties, depending on which property you have determined you want to hear. If you are running an open screen in TTF, and pass over a target with a ferrous content of 17 or less, that target will make a high tone. If that target has a ferrous value of 18 or higher, it will make a low tone. Regardless of the ferrous content, it makes one tone or the other. Same thing if you were running conductive tones, regardless of the number of tones you chose to listen to. When you pass the coil over a target who's conductive properties have been set to be accepted, you would have threshold - a brief pause of silence - target tone - another brief pause of silence - threshold.
In the TTF setup, I find myself listening to both the high tones and low tones. But having used this setting extensively the past several years, I've trained myself to ignore the smooth sounding low tones. However, if I hear a high tone or even a short bleep of a high tone mixed in with a series of low tones, it causes me to stop and resweep that area from multiple directions. And in areas that I've hunted for years with detectors only capable of detecting a targets conductive properties, I've uncovered many coins that I (and many others) have missed in the past. I believe the vast majority of these targets were missed due to what we commonly call target masking. And these targets were masked because of a sweep speed that was too fast to separate the targets and the nulling effect of running with too much discrimination.

Again, it's just my opinion, based on my habits and observations I've made of others. But I think that listening to a tone, any tone, causes the user to slow down and concentrate more than they would if a good percentage of the targets created a null.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply to my query Randy. What you wrote makes a lot of sense. Absent audio feedback of some type, adjustments in sweep speed and direction would probably not take place. Also I've noticed the brief silence before and after an accepted target tone you mentioned. Replace the tone with a null and you lose another piece of information relative to rejected target size (just one long null). Hadn't thought about that. Thanks again. That's the best insight I've gotten on the subject.
 
I agree with Digger, but think that discrimination makes detecting slower because discrimination goes through different channel and some more programing. My point detecting without discrimination is faster and not because we hear all signals, its very easy to make test.but some minimum discrimination, sometimes too helps. Stasys
 
....Randy.....as this thread is called "TTF - Unlocking the mystery"......it's still on topic.......

Where do you stand on the FE17 cut off between the high and low tones???

I personally think it's adequate to bag the good targets. This made me nervous for quite a while thinking I was missing lots of good stuff.
My detecting buddy and I put this bed for ourselves and spent several trips out digging everything below FE17.....it was all rubbish!!! (....sorry, trash!!)

It led me to arrive at "target blending" theory where a good and bad target very close to each other would have their Ferrous signatures combined.
Typically an FE12 & FE35 would blend into one target and give an FE27 for example.
TTF seems to give you two tones for this scenario....albeit sometimes warbled but you have to watch for these......

Gaz.
 
Gaz said:
....Randy.....as this thread is called "TTF - Unlocking the mystery"......it's still on topic.......

Where do you stand on the FE17 cut off between the high and low tones???

I personally think it's adequate to bag the good targets. This made me nervous for quite a while thinking I was missing lots of good stuff.
My detecting buddy and I put this bed for ourselves and spent several trips out digging everything below FE17.....it was all rubbish!!! (....sorry, trash!!)

It led me to arrive at "target blending" theory where a good and bad target very close to each other would have their Ferrous signatures combined.
Typically an FE12 & FE35 would blend into one target and give an FE27 for example.
TTF seems to give you two tones for this scenario....albeit sometimes warbled but you have to watch for these......

Gaz.


sorry to ask gaz you know i hang on your every word so when you say you spent several trips digging everything below fe17 do you mean above fe17 please which would be rubbish appreciate your time on this subject as it has made learning the etrac so much easier happy hunting
 
.....sorry Sug's......we dug everything from FE18 to about FE30...........all rubbish.....iron.

I was never too clear why Minelab expanded the FE range from 30 on the SE to 35 on the ETrac????........it still seems to be all iron???

Gaz.
 
Gaz, I think 17 is a fairly accurate "break point" for separating the two tone audio on ferrous properties represented by coins and jewelry here in the States. Like you, I've dug hundreds, if not thousands, of targets trying to "prove it wrong". But never did. Not to confuse the TTF discussion with more theories, but one of the things on my "Wish List" is to allow the user to program our own tones to what ever target properties we desired. For example, on the E-TRAC, TTF is the simplest approach to coin hunting sites that hold an abundance of iron trash. However, the preset levels for two tones isn't as flexible as I would like. I know we have the four tone option, which breaks at 07. But I don't find that helps me, a coin hunter. And I know I could implement multipe tone in ferrous. But that quickly becomes quite annoying. If I had the capability to program my own tones, I would assign a low tone to all ferrous properties greater than 19, and individual "higher" tones to those ferrous readings of 19 or less. In that scenerio, the majority of iron would still produce the same low tone that I currently ignore. But the ferrous readings of 01 through 19 could each produce their own unique higher tone. For example, I could make targets with ferrous readings of 11 - 13 one high tone and different tones for the other numbers (or groups of numbers) between 01 and 19. If I wanted to widen the range or assign individual high tones to each ferrous target registering below 19, (or even those 20 - 35) I could. If programmable tones were available on conductive tones as well, I could "lump" silver into one tone group and copper into another. I could even assign a single tone to all my coins, and different tones to all other conductive properties. Like I said, it's just a "Wish List" !


Your theory of audio blending on closely adjacent targets is interesting. I have to say I've not recognized that while in the field. I won't say it hasn't happened. I've just not noticed it. I believe the reason I have not noticed a blending is because I use a small coil most of the time. Especially when hunting in areas with an abundance of targets. And when I hit a suspective target, I work the coil around it from a multitude of directions. I know there are those who think that all DD coils separate equally. And I would agree that, for the most part, they do when the targets are either left or right of each other. But if the detection field of all DD coils can be thought of as a "blade" running from the front tip to the center of the rear "heel" of the coil, it seems logical to me that a small coil will separate better than the stock coil or larger when the targets are not left or right of each other.
I've made two simple diagrams that demonstrate that theory.

This one shows how adjacent targets (pull tab, coin and nail) can be separated with either coil, when they are aligned left and right of each other.
[attachment 189081 adjacenttargetsleftandright.jpg]

If you happened to be detecting in a different direction, this one shows how a large coil will mask the coin when swept across those same adjacent targets when aligned with each other. (heel and toe)
[attachment 189082 adjacenttargetstipandheel.jpg]

Granted, we can reduce the masking by hunting an area from multiple directions. But many simply don't take the time to do that.


JMHO HH Randy
 
.......you certainly know your stuff Randy!!!!
Funnily enough......I said the very same thing to my detecting buddy ages ago and also mentioned it on one of those "....what improvements to the ETrac" threads.
Why didn't they make the tone breakpoints adjustable????

The only reason I asked about the target blending issue is that we get people over here saying that you can miss targets in TTF. They say that they have dug coins at FE27 etc. I don't believe
it myself. I think something else was close to the target...namely iron dragging the good targets FE signature down.

Gaz.
 
Gaz said:
.......you certainly know your stuff Randy!!!!
Funnily enough......I said the very same thing to my detecting buddy ages ago and also mentioned it on one of those "....what improvements to the ETrac" threads.
Why didn't they make the tone breakpoints adjustable????

The only reason I asked about the target blending issue is that we get people over here saying that you can miss targets in TTF. They say that they have dug coins at FE27 etc. I don't believe
it myself. I think something else was close to the target...namely iron dragging the good targets FE signature down.

Gaz.[/quote
Gaz they didn't make the tones breakpoints adjustable because is still 1999 explorer with few changes but not something new. I can agree about some signal blending but its because detector take some signal percentage under coil, if ferrous percentage bigger you hear ferrous if conductive you hear conductive-its not something very special and all separation is till the limit, but this situation with all detectors. what I can say about small coils, my long experimentation show that original coil--mine 1050 --is better like all the rest small coils and logic about small coils is not works--at least for me, second DD coils is not like the blade signal is more shape like elongated old send mountain in both coil sides. near the coil, field is like coil, round and when its go deeper its starts to point in to the one line,so field in one ich different like in 5 or 10inc. very easy to understand what shape magnetic field playing with coin in the air. Plus I learned something new that explorer and etrac sends max 10v 4or5W signal all the time when you switch detector on. its not related to sensitivity, you can use manual sensitivity 5 and TX coil ,or coil which send signal will work on max, sensitivity works only what you want to hear, very sad that we cant read this info in manual or maybe I not found :|, how FBS and all detectors works makes easy to understand detector and what ant wont can detector capable to found. Stasys
 
I got my new E-Trac this week. My first metal detector ever. After reading the manual, reading various website posts, and piddling around in the back yard, I got to do my first real "Hunt" this morning with a friend of mine.

I set it up for TTF with an open screen and no head phones so we could both hear what was going on. Once we got on-site we started sweeping and hit several low tone targets that we passed on. We dug a few beer cans thinking maybe.... but no luck. Then I started hitting in the 12-35 plus range. We dug pennies for 3 hours. They just kept coming out of the ground. In one location my friend got a little chirp on the side of this hill and I came over to see if it was worth digging. I think it hit 12-38, so he started digging. After finding the penny, I scanned again. Another target in the same range so we dug some more. Another penny. This went on for over an hour. Of the 15 pennies retrieved, I think about 10 were from that one spot.

We didn't find any real old coins, or silver, but it was fun. I was very impressed with getting 15 coins in 3 hours. Of all the holes we dug, I would have to say 80% had money in them. Even though they were just pennies, it gave me allot of confidence in my new machine. Now, I just need to gain the experience and understanding to really start zeroing in on the higher value targets.

I also now understand what others have been saying about the post 1982 zinc penny. We got a few of those too and they are crusty and breaking down fast. We didn't get and wheat penny's or earlier, most were 60's 70's.

I like the TTF mode. I might try to use it again and train my ears to use 4 tones instead of just the 2. We'll see. So many options, so little time. :eek:)
 
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