V3I Deep silver ?

[wishiwasngallup]

How do i boost the v3i up for deep silver and do i need to dig all targets while in deep silver mode.?

 

[Rob (IL)]

Pick the deep silver program, turn on the machine and dig all signals. The program only accepts targets in the silver range. You won't find silver unless it is there.

I just read an article by Gary in the UK. He talks about many people selling their V3i. He also mentions his poor success using the standard programs in the UK. He however took the time to learn the detector and how to set it up for his sites. He loves the detector now.

You have to take the time to learn the detector if you want it's full potential..

 

[Aurium]

Although I've used the Deep Silver program, personally I've become addicted to the HiPro and have found a lot of silver with that program, some down to 8+ inches. I'd be careful about getting to caught up in the name of the program, and find something that works best with your soil conditions. Oh and careful research pays big dividends. Good luck on your next hunts Tuning the program for maximum depth is probably best aided with a test garden. (that way you can tweak, the filters, and gains for best performance on any program)

 

[Larry (IL)]

There is no substitute for learning how to properly use your detector so you can adjust it to your ground and personal likes, dislikes and hunting style. You don't have to dig all targets but if you are new to the V3i and especially new to detecting, I would strongly suggest that you do. That is part of the learning process of metal detecting so you will know what a good target sounds like amongst trash.

 

[earthmansurfer]

I was just reading over on Tom D's forum and they were talking about the "perceived" greatness of E-Tracs in iron, even though they are slower processors. They are essentially VLF detectors so should have the same problems in iron. Well, one reason, Tom mentioned, that they might pull silver well is due to them using lower freq(s). Note, the E-Trac "Null", I believe is a true discrimination null, unlike the V3i's zero tone "null". Another reason might be that using those lower frequencies makes the E-Trac resonate less with iron. (e.g. - 22.5 hits iron harder, 2.5 not much at all). Just another note here - many guys over there don't feel the E-Trac is that good in iron at all, but with silver, it's numbers don't lie and we have a machine in the V3i to test out some theories in a variety of ways. I am shocked not to see more testing with the V3i as it's so incredibly flexible.

Remember that single frequency machines usually do better in iron, the V3i is running three single frequencies simultaneously, the E-Trac and Fisher CZ's combine their frequencies. The V3i should theoretically have an advantage, but I still see guys who have run both the E-Trac and V3i say the E-Trac does better on silver in iron, and this doesn't make sense to me from a theoretical point - I'm not saying it's not true.

Anyway, now to my point...

I think it would be worth testing in heavily infested iron sites, to run at 2.5kHz (silver program) and work very very slow, while also having the iron range set to a zero tone. A thing worth testing, I think, would be to compare three frequencies to 2.5kHz, while the 3 frequencies are in correlate of course. This should essentially give you the benefits of correlate in iron, and most likely you would be correlating between the two lower frequencies on silver, while getting the before mentioned benefits - hits silver better and resonates less with iron (hence the see through). (An easy way to do this would be to put two programs next to eachother and just switch between them of course, I think you can GB each program separately, but correct me if I'm wrong, as this would be an important part of the test.) Also, you would need to test the filters out here, as well as different recovery speeds, as the E-Trac does well on silver in iron with a slow recovery speed, so we shouldn't be quick to go the fast recovery - I think Jack amongst others have mentioned this regarding correlate, using a quite high recovery delay.)

EMS

ps - I am only bringing up the E-Trac because I think we can emulate a lot of what it does well in iron on silver, not to compare them against one another.

 

[Rob (IL)]

The Minelabs use a total different system. What gets me is no one can say for sure if semi auto or manual is better or how semi auto is suppose to work. No one can say if different numbers are better in noise cancel. No one can say if you can get a signal in the null. The only answers you get is, "I think this is how it works", [size=large]AND MINELAB TELLS PEOPLE NOTHING.!!![/size]

Yes I read the post. Answering these questions wouldn't give away trade secrets. Their engineers should take part in the forums.

 

[earthmansurfer]

But anyway Rob, what might it be? I think we can get there with the V3i or surpass it.

And LOL with those trade secrets! But don't let them stop us from guessing and testing as to what it can be. Don't let them bring you down Rob! (eheheh) We have a machine to get us a little bit close, the biggest difference of course being how the frequencies are transmitted/received. Again, there needs to be more fooling with this V3i, it is just too flexible.

From what I've read about the E-Trac, regarding your question, if your ground is bad (trashy or mineralized) then auto +3 is the way to go. If your ground is mild (like mine) then you can go quite a bit above that auto setting. I think it was Andy who sad that actually.

And you have seen how different channels work better here in European soil (also not using the bad soil or something like that setting in the UK). We just need a little bit of detective reasoning...

You can get a signal in the null but it may not be as good as some faster detectors (except on silver). A couple of interesting points from a thread over at Tom's:

Tom has said regarding the E-Trac (which he DOESN'T use) -

"Phase-angle wrap-around also dictates 'perceived' iron see-thru; yet, elevates 'falsing' percentage/ratio."

I don't understand that , but it is something that he said is unique about is.

From Aaron:

Without going into to much detail, as Im short on time, I do NOT agree with the MineLab techs statement regarding the Etrac and Explorer not being able to hear tones through nulls. I have talked with Ralph DeGraw (SunRay) at lenght for some time now and just recently about just this topic. Ralph has been using the Explorers since they came out and the Etrac and has more time and experience than anyone I know on those machines. Ralph relayed a experience he had of hunting in a field that most people almost always give up on because of the excessive nulling. He took his time and went slow and ended up finding some Barber silver UNDER all that nulling. I found it hard to believe myself but I have experienced myself where if you go slow enough and have the right settings you will get the tones through a null. Now as Steve put it, it all depends how the target is situated. If the coin is right under that iron and the iron is big enough...your probably not gonna hear through the null, and if it is off center from the iron theres a chance that you will.
I just got down comparing both my Etrac and 75 LTD over the weekend on a old farm house site I've been hunting for 2yrs now. The whole property is just one big null,,,I dont think the original people ever threw anything out, they probably just buried it. I used 5" coils on both machines and even with the 5" coil on the Etrac theres still alot of nulling, but I still able to do ALOT better than when I had the bigger procoil on. However...it still does not compare to the F75LTD, the speed of that thing in between targets is incredible although its sooo noisy it tends to wear you out faster. I had experimented in a 6x8ft area first with the Etrac and then with the LTD both with 5" coils and I was amazed how many ferrous targets ( clad, bullets, casings, ect) the Etrac missed around all that iron even with the 5 coil.

I think Jack (Cybersage) is on to something when he said that running a high recovery delay with correlate on might be the way to go (as opposed to a low recovery delay). So, does the E-Trac use correlate as well? Hmmm, see where I'm going??? It isn't a fast machine...

edit - Here is Tom's answer - wowa:

Phase-angle wrap-around: Target ID is created by phase angle. There are multiple "signature" components of iron. A couple of the (less dominant) iron electromagnetic signature components... bias towards the high-conductor phase angle ID. (((So far.... no ID problems))). If the target is a nail with a fairly sharp tip.... the 'less dominant' phase-angle ID signature becomes a bit more 'dominant'. Problems 'might' start to annunciate. Now........ if the nail is bent.... AND.... has a sharp tip/heel........... the less dominant (minor component) of iron becomes major/dominating........... with subsequent false ID. The sharp tip of the nail is one problem. The bent 'arc' of the nail is another problem. If the nail is bent beyond 90-Deg.... the two (approaching parallel) portions of the nail provide yet a third phase-angle overlapping problem. The dominant overlapping phase-angle signature that ensues.... will generate "end resultant" right smack into 'high-conductor' phase-angle ID. This is ONE of the justifications/definitions of 'wrap-around'. If the design engineer chooses to 'push' the unmasking abilities/capabilities of his electronic architect/platform..... it is common to boost the 'less dominant' iron signature/phase-angle.....to a bit more aggressive 'dominant' status.... so as to encroach the non-ferrous threshold phase-angle baseline. Unmasking is enhanced..... at the cost of 'more falsing'. Bruce Candy was moderately conservative with the Explorer's iron wrap-around. A high conductor (say a silver dime) in very close proximity to a low conductor nail...... can easily 'enhance' the "less dominant" iron phase-angle signature.... and wrap it around into the high conductor angle...... with subsequent 'coin-ID' audio report. Yes.... there are times that we have dug a high conductor coin out of a hole.... and a nail or two.... came out of the same excavated hole. And...... there are times when we have dug a 'coin ID'......... only to find the 'tip' of a nail barely sticking out from the side of the hole.
..... In short: When the phase-angle of iron is distorted.... and the angle wraps-around into the high-conductor phase angle ID bandwidth/range..... you will acquire a high-tone 'false'.

 

[Rob (IL)]

This is the wrong place to be talking about Minelabs. We need to get back on track.

 

[wishiwasngallup]

I had one ... It suckt for me .I love the V3I and there is no comparison. thank you all for the feed back.

 

[earthmansurfer]

I mentioned quite a few points/ideas/etc. that might assist with silver hunting on the V3i and you didn't address any of them. You are one of the most experienced guys here with the V3i and with detecting in general. It would be really nice to hear what you have to say about how we can optimize this V and think outside the box. After all, we have a machine where we can adjust so much, so much more than just "turn to the deep silver program" and go. A lot of the most interesting features of many metal detectors have been discovered by users and not designed intentionally by the engineers. We have one of those machines for sure. This is what my intention was before, not to compare this to the E-Trac.

Thanks,
EMS

 

[Dude]

If I was reading this and thinking about getting a V3i I would probable get scared away.

The V3i's greatest strength is it's flexibility in the right persons hands, it's achillies heel is it's flexibility in the wrong persons hands.

When I got mine last year I promised myself to leave the expert settings alone until I was familiar with it. Well this year I felt I was ready to dig in and try out some of the expert settings and it became and exercise in frustration for me.

Just this week I was hunting that grassy strip between the road and the sidewalk in an older part of town. Around here it's a trash laden, iron infested area that can drive any detector nuts. Using the stock C&J I turned the RX Gain down to 3 and set the disc around 80, set the filter to 7 high pass because of overhead power lines, also discriminated out VDI's where foil and pull tabs would be found.

I was digging coins at 8 inches with ease, no need for expert settings or extra testing.

If someone keeps testing different settings how will they ever learn the machine and at what point do you stop messing with the settings and start detecting?

I once read that less than 10% of Microsoft Office gets used.

 

[earthmansurfer]

If I was reading this and thinking about getting a V3i I would probable get scared away.

The V3i's greatest strength is it's flexibility in the right persons hands, it's achillies heel is it's flexibility in the wrong persons hands.

When I got mine last year I promised myself to leave the expert settings alone until I was familiar with it. Well this year I felt I was ready to dig in and try out some of the expert settings and it became and exercise in frustration for me.

Just this week I was hunting that grassy strip between the road and the sidewalk in an older part of town. Around here it's a trash laden, iron infested area that can drive any detector nuts. Using the stock C&J I turned the RX Gain down to 3 and set the disc around 80, set the filter to 7 high pass because of overhead power lines, also discriminated out VDI's where foil and pull tabs would be found.

I was digging coins at 8 inches with ease, no need for expert settings or extra testing.

If someone keeps testing different settings how will they ever learn the machine and at what point do you stop messing with the settings and start detecting?

I once read that less than 10% of Microsoft Office gets used.

I know the machine fairly well and am trying to learn more about it. I like playing with those settings, it's why I bought the machine. I'm not meaning to scare people away (if indeed you are implying me). I sure hope one thread wouldn't scare a person off. I sure wasn't and read A LOT of the complaints. I can't write with the intention of not scaring off someone looking to by a V3i - There are experts here and I'd love to learn from them. To each his own. I agree with the bolded points though, well said. I used the expert settings since day one and haven't had a problem but in different ground I might have.

EMS

 

[CyberSage]

Great information here! Thanks EMS for the theoretical input on the two detectors. One of the most honest threads on this subject I have seen to date. Without a doubt Rob is one of the most knowledgeable V3/V3i users out there. His realist perspective seems to bring the nonsense rants back down to earth in short order. The question of performance in iron, and aluminum in general is what it's all about. I have no doubt when it comes to depth that it's hard to beat the V3/V3i, but rooting around in the trash is yet to be determined. I feel the high conductivity of a Silver coin combined with the consistent response of it's uniform shape will give away it's location more often than not using the correlate mode combined with a slow swing and slow recovery delay. I know you have heard me preach this theory a lot, but it works, and it works well. I will soon be the owner of the other detector in question. It should prove to be interesting.

Jack

 

[Dude]

If I was reading this and thinking about getting a V3i I would probable get scared away.

The V3i's greatest strength is it's flexibility in the right persons hands, it's achillies heel is it's flexibility in the wrong persons hands.

When I got mine last year I promised myself to leave the expert settings alone until I was familiar with it. Well this year I felt I was ready to dig in and try out some of the expert settings and it became and exercise in frustration for me.

Just this week I was hunting that grassy strip between the road and the sidewalk in an older part of town. Around here it's a trash laden, iron infested area that can drive any detector nuts. Using the stock C&J I turned the RX Gain down to 3 and set the disc around 80, set the filter to 7 high pass because of overhead power lines, also discriminated out VDI's where foil and pull tabs would be found.

I was digging coins at 8 inches with ease, no need for expert settings or extra testing.

If someone keeps testing different settings how will they ever learn the machine and at what point do you stop messing with the settings and start detecting?

I once read that less than 10% of Microsoft Office gets used.

I know the machine fairly well and am trying to learn more about it. I like playing with those settings, it's why I bought the machine. I'm not meaning to scare people away (if indeed you are implying me). I sure hope one thread wouldn't scare a person off. I sure wasn't and read A LOT of the complaints. I can't write with the intention of not scaring off someone looking to by a V3i - There are experts here and I'd love to learn from them. To each his own. I agree with the bolded points though, well said. I used the expert settings since day one and haven't had a problem but in different ground I might have.

EMS

Sorry, please don't take me wrong I'm not bashing anyone. The hobby needs people that digs into every setting and reports back their findings, we all become better because it. I just thought the gentlemen asked a simple question and got an answer that only an engineer with a slide rule would understand.

Just saying.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Dude - Point taken. I had thought the question was basically answered and so thought it a good time jump in to get "theoretical". As I said, I didn't really understand it either! But I thought maybe someone would and could jump in and put it in everyday terms. I guess I'm just a bit frustrated that there isn't more experimentation going on with the V3i, with all the settings and such - but to each his own, everyone is different, accepted. Questions and findings that are more theoretical around here usually get answered with "Well, that is great if it works for you." and my intention isn't what works for "me", it's what might help us to understand the machine better, to uncover some hidden gems, etc.

Good hunting,
EMS

 

[johno]

and dont stop EMS i cant speak for everyone but i enjoy your post and your determination to find the holy grail.. you post along with cyber rob larry fox and on and on have helped me in my quest to tame the v3i. i couldnt have done it without all the help. some of which i used and some i tried and didnt. needles to say its saved me time and helped me find more. with less frustration. thanks again keep on posting. hh