Jim, there are better machines out there when hunting in iron than the Sovereigns but when it comes to depth they are second to none. The Explorers/E Trac's definitely give you some additional options to help deal with iron masking more than the Sovereigns. I use to use reverse iron discrimination with the iron mask switch with good success. It didn't work 100% of the time but enough to pick out some coins in iron that I might have walked over because I thought it was an iron false.
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Where are the finds?
- Thread starter EZrider
- Start date
crazyman,
This was nothing I would have even stopped for .....It was not a false until I raised my Sensitivity to try to hit the target that my partner had already found ....He located the hit and had me check it .....I couldn't hit it !!.....So if I were on my own I would have walked right past this area !!!......The high tone that I got was a "falsing " tone that was not the true Silver tone that I was after ..... Depth isn't everything ....Sometimes descrimination and Seperation play a bigger role as is the case here ....Jim
This was nothing I would have even stopped for .....It was not a false until I raised my Sensitivity to try to hit the target that my partner had already found ....He located the hit and had me check it .....I couldn't hit it !!.....So if I were on my own I would have walked right past this area !!!......The high tone that I got was a "falsing " tone that was not the true Silver tone that I was after ..... Depth isn't everything ....Sometimes descrimination and Seperation play a bigger role as is the case here ....Jim
JASONSPAZ1
New member
Boy do I need a new camera to post my recent goodies found with my Sovereign GT.
HH
Jason
HH
Jason
Critterhunter
New member
More excellent finds!
Jim, there are three factors that I would point to that could have cost you hearing that coin. First and foremost would be coil selection. The stock 10" coil isn't as good as either the Pro Coil or the even better 12x10 (& to some extent 15x12) in terms of seperation ability. The stock 10" Tornado is an excellent coil, way better than the various versions of that coil on the Explorer, but the Pro Coil is better, and the 12x10 is even better in separation ability. Even the 15x12 was better for me than the stock coil in terms of left/right separation of targets. Throw into this mix the ability of say the 12x10 to ride at higher sensitivity settings than the stock 10" coil, and even get deeper (see my test in the 12x10 thread) than the stock coil using the exact same sensitivity setting, and I bet there in lies the difference.
The second possible factor would be sensitivity setting. Not having it too low, but having it too high. IMO there is no easy way to tell just where it should be set unless you stick a silver dime in the ground at fringe depth and calibrate at the site. At least in my soil if I were to just set it right near the edge of stability I will suffer in terms of depth and target ID/audio. Often riding higher (though stable) than I should will not only cause targets to degrade, but it can also cause them to null out just like iron. I'm finding the 12x10 wants sensitivity calibrated closer to max stable sensitivity than the stock coil or the 15x12, though...further increasing it's depth ability.
The third and final factor would be proper fringe target investigation. I've tried to intentionaly over state this factor several times to people. When I'm hunting for fringe stuff I listen for any type of change in the threshold, including a null or a "false". Once I come across something like that it's time to properly investigate the target. If you just lazy like hack at it with a few normal sweeps don't expect the true target ID to surface. Often fringe stuff needs very precise coil placement and the right amount of fast/wiggle work, or often a wider 4 to 6" constant sweep at a medium to slow sweep speed. Whichever of these styles the site requires, it must be kept in constant motion to "pull or draw out" the proper target ID and audio. Often intial investigation of the target will still be junk city, but as you are doing the above you need to slowly walk the coil forward and backward over the target until you start to hear the audio rise. Continue past it a bit and when the audio starts to go down back up a bit to the best/highest pitch/or at least more clear "peak" in the audio. Do the wiggle or short sweep there, and it can take as many as 6 or 7 short sweeps or wiggles until the target finally climbs to it's peak in proper ID. Also, at some high mineral/rough ground sites the target doesn't even have to be all that deep, nor sound all that deep (it can be loud), yet due to the ground conditions it's going to take the exact same method above to derive a true target ID. I've swept over IDs in the 140's or 150's that were plenty loud enough and I automatically assumed were going to be trash, until I did all the above and hit the sweet spot to find out it was indeed a coin. If people aren't doing this methods and just going lazy over a "junk" signal and taking a quick reading of the VDI and passing on then I gurantee they are missing some great finds. Coins at fringe depth or ones that aren't even really more than 5 to 7" deep yet ground matrix is playing havoc with them.
Jim, there are three factors that I would point to that could have cost you hearing that coin. First and foremost would be coil selection. The stock 10" coil isn't as good as either the Pro Coil or the even better 12x10 (& to some extent 15x12) in terms of seperation ability. The stock 10" Tornado is an excellent coil, way better than the various versions of that coil on the Explorer, but the Pro Coil is better, and the 12x10 is even better in separation ability. Even the 15x12 was better for me than the stock coil in terms of left/right separation of targets. Throw into this mix the ability of say the 12x10 to ride at higher sensitivity settings than the stock 10" coil, and even get deeper (see my test in the 12x10 thread) than the stock coil using the exact same sensitivity setting, and I bet there in lies the difference.
The second possible factor would be sensitivity setting. Not having it too low, but having it too high. IMO there is no easy way to tell just where it should be set unless you stick a silver dime in the ground at fringe depth and calibrate at the site. At least in my soil if I were to just set it right near the edge of stability I will suffer in terms of depth and target ID/audio. Often riding higher (though stable) than I should will not only cause targets to degrade, but it can also cause them to null out just like iron. I'm finding the 12x10 wants sensitivity calibrated closer to max stable sensitivity than the stock coil or the 15x12, though...further increasing it's depth ability.
The third and final factor would be proper fringe target investigation. I've tried to intentionaly over state this factor several times to people. When I'm hunting for fringe stuff I listen for any type of change in the threshold, including a null or a "false". Once I come across something like that it's time to properly investigate the target. If you just lazy like hack at it with a few normal sweeps don't expect the true target ID to surface. Often fringe stuff needs very precise coil placement and the right amount of fast/wiggle work, or often a wider 4 to 6" constant sweep at a medium to slow sweep speed. Whichever of these styles the site requires, it must be kept in constant motion to "pull or draw out" the proper target ID and audio. Often intial investigation of the target will still be junk city, but as you are doing the above you need to slowly walk the coil forward and backward over the target until you start to hear the audio rise. Continue past it a bit and when the audio starts to go down back up a bit to the best/highest pitch/or at least more clear "peak" in the audio. Do the wiggle or short sweep there, and it can take as many as 6 or 7 short sweeps or wiggles until the target finally climbs to it's peak in proper ID. Also, at some high mineral/rough ground sites the target doesn't even have to be all that deep, nor sound all that deep (it can be loud), yet due to the ground conditions it's going to take the exact same method above to derive a true target ID. I've swept over IDs in the 140's or 150's that were plenty loud enough and I automatically assumed were going to be trash, until I did all the above and hit the sweet spot to find out it was indeed a coin. If people aren't doing this methods and just going lazy over a "junk" signal and taking a quick reading of the VDI and passing on then I gurantee they are missing some great finds. Coins at fringe depth or ones that aren't even really more than 5 to 7" deep yet ground matrix is playing havoc with them.
Critter.
I'll say it again ....I found a Slver dime which I posted not 100 ft from where my partner found his , and mine was every bit as deep as his .... and it rang LOUD !!!..... Even though the Tornado is not as good a coil as the Pro Coil on the E Trac , I'm SURE that I would have heard at least a "peep" or a hint of Silver ....We all know how Silver hits , and we all know that Silver tone that NOBODY can forget !!...... This was not happening !!..... When hunting you will get a peep or something that will stop you in your tracks to come back to investigate ......I spent a good 20 minutes adjusting my Sovereign to try to hit that coin ....This is after the coin was already hit by my buddy !!.....It was right under his coil and loud as loud can be !!....
I would be willing to bet my Sovereign , that you would NOT have heard this target with any Sovereign .... Bottom Line ...... Chak one up for the E Tracs descrimination ......As I have said all along , the E Trac really is an evolving machine .... Like it or not , there are reasons that it's the flagship machine !!.......I'm surely not downing the Sovereign ....I STILL love my Sovereign , but I'm learning to love my E Trac even more for what it does behind the scenes .......Jim
I'll say it again ....I found a Slver dime which I posted not 100 ft from where my partner found his , and mine was every bit as deep as his .... and it rang LOUD !!!..... Even though the Tornado is not as good a coil as the Pro Coil on the E Trac , I'm SURE that I would have heard at least a "peep" or a hint of Silver ....We all know how Silver hits , and we all know that Silver tone that NOBODY can forget !!...... This was not happening !!..... When hunting you will get a peep or something that will stop you in your tracks to come back to investigate ......I spent a good 20 minutes adjusting my Sovereign to try to hit that coin ....This is after the coin was already hit by my buddy !!.....It was right under his coil and loud as loud can be !!....
I would be willing to bet my Sovereign , that you would NOT have heard this target with any Sovereign .... Bottom Line ...... Chak one up for the E Tracs descrimination ......As I have said all along , the E Trac really is an evolving machine .... Like it or not , there are reasons that it's the flagship machine !!.......I'm surely not downing the Sovereign ....I STILL love my Sovereign , but I'm learning to love my E Trac even more for what it does behind the scenes .......Jim
..... One of these days I'm just gonna have to start a foundation to be able to afford an E Trac for Critter .....He really has to get one !!..... The CritterTrac Foundation !!.....It has a nice ring to it doesn't it ? ...... In the mean time , I willl get a SEF coil for the Sovereign , and see if I can possibly run into this same scenario again .... I figure a 10 x 12 should give the Sovereign at a minimum an even chance at hunting as that E Trac with a Pro Coil according to Critter ......My buddy hunts with an E Trac with the Pro Coil and we hunt together so I don't have to carry 2 machines with me all the way thru the park ... There are other sections where we scrape together some Silver ....It will take a good days hunt, but it's there ...... JimCritterhunter
New member
The GT is not perfect. Never said that, but it IS more perfect in what I want than any machine I've ever owned. See my signature file. 'Nuff said! 
I don't mind debating the pros and cons of machines but I never get personal with people. Please try to afford me the same courtesy.
I don't mind debating the pros and cons of machines but I never get personal with people. Please try to afford me the same courtesy.Critterhunter
New member
In light of recent remarks I think I'll be limiting my posts to my testing in the field of various settings, coils, and providing field reports on hunts...with no correspondence or replies to remarks or other questions concerning the GT. If I'm going to get mocked on a personal basis for sharing my opinion then why bother? I have no problem having a heavy handed opinion of machines, but I do not venture into making personal remarks about people. That's an old strategy used by certain political parties when they have nothing to back up their stance on things. It would be very easy for me to point out things of a personal nature concerning some people, but that has nothing to do with metal detectors, does it? My interaction or response to questions will now be limited to posting links to already covered topics. That should have been done by a moderator on this forum a long time ago anyway to help people.
Critterhunter
New member
synthnut said:
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1293994,page=7
In particular, an excerpt..."Let's range sensitivity down to 3PM and see if the stock coil can still at least sound off at that setting like the SEF was able to. Nope! I couldn't get any kind of audio response from the stock coil at this setting, where as the 12x10 was as said sounding off fairly easy and getting into the 140's and 150s. What a contrast! It appears the SEF reaches down further than the 10" coil at the exact same sensitivity setting! That was impressive!"
Critter you are very knowledgable on why a detector does what it does but some machines and coils are just better than others. Most experienced detectorist know their machines and don't go strictly by the book to operate them. That being said people have different results with the exact same products we all know this and you can't compare results from here in TN to Ohio. Oh by the way X-12 works a LOT better on my machine than the SEF. O.K it is your turn.
HH
HHIt was a debate, nothing more. How did I get personal? You couldn't win so now you want to take your ball and go home? I gave you every opportunity to prove your point. Your only proof through the whole debate was "why would they put it on there then?" The debate could have been ended by you at anytime by providing some "fact" that what I was saying was not accurate and providing at least something, anything to prove your point. Every time I put out a "fact" you danced around it. Every time I asked you a question you changed the subject. All I asked was that if an air test was accurate as you say and pertained to what we were discussing then please show me the results. You could have ended it right there.
Critter.
If I handn't dug the very same year Barber dime from an area that not more than 100 ft from where my buddy found his Barber, then the depth would have certainly been an issue ..... This was on a park lawn , and if I had a rock in my hand I could have hit my partner with it ....That's how close we were ....It wasn't like I went into the woods nearby...It was on the very same lawn in the very same area ........I called him over and he checked my coin before I dug it ...He looked at me and smiled and said it sounded like Silver to him ..... I dug down and the soil was very similar to what he had just dug his Barber out of .....He had more trash in his area, but the coin after I dug it was probably if measured within a 1/2 " of the depth of his coin ....My coin rang right out !!....No problems at all ....I would be willing to bet that this coin could have been another inch or so down and I STILL would have heard it !!....It rang THAT CLEARLY !!..... I didn't have to adjust anything to hear it !!....It was just there !!....... This is my reason behind not thinking that another coil would have made any difference ...... I could not have repeated this scenario any better unless I dug a coin that was 3 ft away from his , and we measured the depth of both holes .....By eye, there was not much of a difference in depths , if any at all !!.... I would love to believe that it was just a matter of a coil , but knowing how deep each target was , and how easy it was for me to hear my Silver , I really should have heard HIS Silver also at the depth it was recovered at ..... Something else that proves my point is that everything that he dug that was deep , he would call me over to check out .....Most of what he was digging was much deeper than that dime that he dug ...... I heard all the rest of his targets loud and clear ....... I had no trouble at all hearing whatever he was hearing .....He was pretty impressed , and so was I ......The ONLY stumper of the day , was that pesky Barber dime .... Again, I wish it was a matter of a coil , but I can be pretty darn sure that ths was not the case .... I am glad to see ths happen right in front of me as it was one of the most valuable lessons I learned ..... and I continue to learn ..... Jim
BTW ....There is no reason for you to change the way you handle yourself on the forum by limiting yourself ....... Nobodies perfect , and there is nobody out to get you , or to hurt you in any way .....People just like yourself drive home points all the time ..... Folks are not always going to agree with you, or with me , or with Crazyman , or with anybody else on this forum ....People are NOT mocking you ..... They are joking around .... I'm sorry that you took things this way .... There's nobody on this forum that is read as much as you .....and there is nobody that is respected on this forum as much as you ....... Don't get crazy with this whole thing ..... You are not the only one pationate about dirt hunting , and other people are just as eager to prove their points ..... Strong debates like this is what makes for better detecting ........Take a deep breath and relax ...... We're ALL in this together .......
If I handn't dug the very same year Barber dime from an area that not more than 100 ft from where my buddy found his Barber, then the depth would have certainly been an issue ..... This was on a park lawn , and if I had a rock in my hand I could have hit my partner with it ....That's how close we were ....It wasn't like I went into the woods nearby...It was on the very same lawn in the very same area ........I called him over and he checked my coin before I dug it ...He looked at me and smiled and said it sounded like Silver to him ..... I dug down and the soil was very similar to what he had just dug his Barber out of .....He had more trash in his area, but the coin after I dug it was probably if measured within a 1/2 " of the depth of his coin ....My coin rang right out !!....No problems at all ....I would be willing to bet that this coin could have been another inch or so down and I STILL would have heard it !!....It rang THAT CLEARLY !!..... I didn't have to adjust anything to hear it !!....It was just there !!....... This is my reason behind not thinking that another coil would have made any difference ...... I could not have repeated this scenario any better unless I dug a coin that was 3 ft away from his , and we measured the depth of both holes .....By eye, there was not much of a difference in depths , if any at all !!.... I would love to believe that it was just a matter of a coil , but knowing how deep each target was , and how easy it was for me to hear my Silver , I really should have heard HIS Silver also at the depth it was recovered at ..... Something else that proves my point is that everything that he dug that was deep , he would call me over to check out .....Most of what he was digging was much deeper than that dime that he dug ...... I heard all the rest of his targets loud and clear ....... I had no trouble at all hearing whatever he was hearing .....He was pretty impressed , and so was I ......The ONLY stumper of the day , was that pesky Barber dime .... Again, I wish it was a matter of a coil , but I can be pretty darn sure that ths was not the case .... I am glad to see ths happen right in front of me as it was one of the most valuable lessons I learned ..... and I continue to learn ..... Jim
BTW ....There is no reason for you to change the way you handle yourself on the forum by limiting yourself ....... Nobodies perfect , and there is nobody out to get you , or to hurt you in any way .....People just like yourself drive home points all the time ..... Folks are not always going to agree with you, or with me , or with Crazyman , or with anybody else on this forum ....People are NOT mocking you ..... They are joking around .... I'm sorry that you took things this way .... There's nobody on this forum that is read as much as you .....and there is nobody that is respected on this forum as much as you ....... Don't get crazy with this whole thing ..... You are not the only one pationate about dirt hunting , and other people are just as eager to prove their points ..... Strong debates like this is what makes for better detecting ........Take a deep breath and relax ...... We're ALL in this together .......
The GT is a great detector and the only one I use but I know it's limitations and I have no problem pointing them out. You on the other hand have made some wild statements about the capabilities of the iron mask and going as far as saying stuff like the iron mask made it better when it comes to masking than just about any detector out there. In Jim's post about the masked dime you tried to make it seem that it was his fault by not knowing how to use his coil or the coils fault that it couldn't hit the masked target when the E Trac could. You use air tests to try and prove how great the iron mask is by using a pull tab over a dime when iron mask has absolutely nothing to do with any result you tried to prove with these two targets in the test. I could keep going but......you moved quickly and pressed the sympathy button as a way to get out of proving your point.
I like reading Critters field tests and he's convinced me to get the SEF coil by reading his reports. I just disagree with him on this one point and that's all there is to it. This debate has at least open some peoples eyes and has helped some that have been having problems so in this case the debate has done what it was supposed to do. I'm headed to the flower shop to send Critter a dozen roses as I seemed to have hurt his feelings in some way.
jamesinwesttexas
New member
This is interesting and I may be learning something, also a little amused. I'm fairly convinced to hunt mostly with iron mask off. But, I can see Critter's point about coils, it has to make a difference, most probably a big difference, maybe all the difference. I'm especially wondering if an S5 or S8 coil would have seen Synthnut's friend's dime??? It wasn't that deep was it? And would the 12x10 have found it? Which coil on the Etrac are we comparing to? So I'll be waiting for yall to figure this one out before I make my next coil purchase. I only have the 10 inch Tornado. Hasta luego.
James
James
