Whites Customer Service , failed me,

[Dustyroundup]

3 times today, 3 different people.

End result
"Run it in the Relic Primary Mode, then , if it performs the best"
(which means, I cant utilize the faster SAT speeds)

Alternate Mode "MIGHT" work better if I turn OFF the machine, then turn it on , in the alt mode. to let it ground balance in that mode.
(which means I cant switch on the fly)

The first guy said I could send it in for a check up for $45.00
the second guy said it may have" DRIFTED"
he also said RELIC would NOT sound OFF a 0 to +95 , it only sounds off on -95 to 0 targets, I argued that with him , and he said he'd go check my theory on a floor model. ???
The 3rd guy said run it in Primary then.if thats what works the best.

SO, If they cant help me , then I guess Ive wasted alot of time and money with them.

Terrible customer service in my opinion.
I always read good posts about them , but I sure feel like they either dont know , or they dont care , to help me get lined out.
I was hopeing it was operator error.
But, when I hear , "just run in Primary" or "it may have drifted" or " send it in and for $45.00 we'll test it out"
Not a good day for me.
Dusty

 

[JohninNC]

I've nothing but good from them, but what they told you would make me mad.
John

 

[Douglas]

Sorry to here that happen to you, Did you get it new, or did you get it used? This doesn't sound like White's, maybe someone that's new that works there, I would keep calling them to get your MD fix, I'm sure someone there can help you. Whites do have good Customer Service

 

[littfam]

Yes, I agree that their customer service is the "BEST" in the business. My brother has a 1.5 year old coinmaster that is having issues. He called today and they sent him a brand new one no questions asked!!! Your experience is not the norm. Sorry that you are having this issue.

 

[Nancy-IL]

I've never heard any negative comments about Whites service.

 

[John]

Wow, I have never heard of any negative remarks about Whites, especially in customer service. They have always gone above and beyond my expectations on more than a few occasions.
I hope I am not violating any forum rules by posting a link to another forum that you can speak directly to Carl at Whites. If I have I apologize, but I think speaking to Carl by private email this situation will be resolved quickly. Best of luck with your situation, and we hope to hear good news soon.

http://forums.whiteselectronics.com/forum.php

 

[srf2112]

??!? say it isn't so Dusty. Sorry to hear about the problems you're having. Like the others, I'm completely surprised by this. I don't know who you dealt with but Todd and Cari in Sweet Home Or. have ALWAYS gone above and beyond to take care of any issue, question or request I've ever had . .no matter how big or small. Like John said above, Carl White would probably be personally interested in your situation . . .couldn't hurt. Hope it gets worked out quickly and your back out smiling with your MXT.

 

[Larry (IL)]

I wouldn't be so judgmental yet on the White's failure. Erratic or strange behavior is very hard to diagnose over the phone when they don't know what your settings, EMI and ground conditions are. I think if you can get your machine completely checked out for $45, it would be a bargain, I take it that it is out of warranty? You are close enough that I bet turn around time will be about a week and the MXT that comes back would be as good as a new one................ send that sucker in even if nothing is wrong with it. If it comes back with the same characteristics, you can be pretty sure the problem is not the machine.

 

[KY PI]

Sorry you are having problems. I agree with Larry that $45 seems like a good deal to get your machine totally checked out. I've always heard such great things about White's Customer Service. I hope they make things right for you!

 

[Flintstone]

What is the MXT doing. Maybe if you explain what it dose someone here can help.

 

[Monte]

From below you posted:

Howdy,

Well, I'm really confused.
Up till recently, I always ran in Relic ALT mode, with Disc at preset, and Gain at preset or +1, Thresh at barely audible.

It was noisy , but thats what I had gotten used too.

Okay, I can agree with that, and I also like it just a bit unstable myself. I usually operate at +3 unless I absolutely have to reduce it.

So, this year Ive been out 4 times, in the last 2 weeks,
Twice at totlots, and twice relic type, old homesteads.

Ive been using Relic Primary, and switching to ALT, over the same targets, prior to digging. to see the difference in each mode.

If you are hunting in the relic 'mode', which is just a motion-based Discriminate mode, you can toggle back and forth and either have the Mixed Mode Audio or not, based upon your Discriminate level setting. If you are at the first 'preset' Disc. marker, then you will hear typical iron (lower responding targets) in the All Metal Mixed Mode lower growl and a higher-tone from targets above that Disc. setting, or you will only hear the higher-conductive targets (above the Disc. level) and silence the lower responses (as with most Disc. operation).

The Primary is quieter, of course, on account of the slower SAT speed.

Here is where you sort of lost me because the SAT speed (Self-Adjusting Threshold or auto-tune) is a variable function of the Dual-control when you are in the All Metal Prospecting mode. In the Coin & Jewelry or Relic discriminating modes, that dual-control adjusts the Discriminate rejection point. There is no "slower SAT" as a function of the Discriminate operation for Relic or C&J.

BUT, here is my problem.
It seems the Primary mode tends to pick up on targets ALOT better. They sound off, and its a definite target.
But, after I switch to relic ALT , and check the same target, its erratic, and theres times that I think I may have missed the target, because the ALT mode almost, doesnt even recognize, or should I say sound off, on a target that the Primary mode EASILY see's.

You have the standard MXT?

By 'Primary' Relic mode, are you referring to a center trigger toggle position? Do you have the Mixed Mode audio function at that setting and hear the lower growl from iron and similar small junk and a higher tone from a penny or dime?

By ALT, are you referring to triggering the toggle forward and perhaps rejecting the lower conductive targets? Those that are below the Disc. setting and that also eliminates the All metal Mixed Mode growl or low-tone audio?

The Dual-control has two 'Preset' markers, one is lower to reject many nails and smaller iron (which is what I use), and the other is set much higher. Here's the big question I have at this point: Are you setting the Disc. control at the higher 'Preset' marker or the lower 'Preset' marker?

Remember, in the Relic mode this control is ONLY going to adjust your Discrimination level, not a SAT speed! This might be what is confusing you, and perhaps those who you called, because they might not have understood what you were saying. If I am reading this correctly, I think you might have confused the Disc. and SAT adjustment functions for the operating mode that are designed to function in. That could be the problem, not a malfunction of the MXT.

Ive been reading the Edge, trying to find a reason for the behavior, but cant seem to find anything. Except for "Verify stability"

Maybe you just didn't use the MXT enough through the winter and a basic refresher is needed, even from just the factory Owner's Manual, to remember what the MXT adjustments can/can't do.

So, I'm getting a little worried, as I thought the higher SAT speed, Relic ALT mode, should be hitting targets the same as, or even better than the slower Relic Primary mode.

The motion-based Relic mode uses the same sweep speed and has the same recovery rate. there isn't an adjustable slower or faster setting as such.

The SAT adjustment doesn't control any recovery time of the Discriminate operation and, if you're using a higher SAT setting in the Relic program, you are really only adjusting for a higher Discriminate setting. SAT is for the Prospecting mode, not Coin & Jewelry or for Relic modes.

Therefore, you were hunting with a higher Discrimination setting and hearing all targets, with Mixed Mode Audi and in Discrimination, then when you triggered to the ALT function, you rejected the targets below that higher Discriminate setting. Thus, they didn't response and you believed the MXT was not functioning properly. I believe the MXT is working just fine, but you need to refresh your knowledge and use of the Discriminate settings for the C&J and Relic modes, and only adjust the SAT speed when you're hunting in the Prospecting All Metal mode.

Its really confusing me .
So , I find that I trust the Relic Primary mode, and am using it more.
I feel I CANT trust the faster SAT speeds.
And I dont like the idea, of not being able to fully utilize, or trust my MXT's other modes.

Well, there you go. Unless I am having a really lame moment in my own MXT knowledge and operation, I think I have explained what YOU have done wrong, and in turn that should help you get the needed performance out of the MXT.

Forget anything that talks about SAT or SAT adjustments when you are not using the Prospecting All Metal mode. That is the mode you can adjust the SAT speed for.

Also, maybe you ought to also use the Coin & Jewelry program a bit, as well. If I am hunting a tot-lot or most coin hunting sites, I might prefer the C&J mode over Relic mode, and do most of the time. I do use the Relic program as well on the MXT, but with either mode, just realize that the dual-control is used to set the lowest-level of Discrimination (rejection) you can tolerate. then, hunt away!

Any Ideas?? would be very helpful.
I have seen a few posts, of detectors, having problem behaviors, and having to be sent in, for tune ups.
So, thats stuck in my head, and I'm a little worried that this behavior, is something that I cant fix.
And jeez, its not like I have very many hours on it, and I treat it like glass. Ive never had it out in wet weather, never dropped it,etc.

I'm just not having fun with it.

I think you summed it up. that is, you might not have many hours on the MXT and still are not that familiar with the MXT and the controls. The MXT is really a very versatile detector with rather basic or simple-to-use controls.

The MXT Edge book is good, but I think it can also be overload for many people who haven't got a basic understanding on the MXT. I'd say shelve the book for a few months. Read the Owner's Manual and then stick to the basics.

You only mention using the Relic program so I would ask 'why'? I would ask the same, too, if someone only used the C&J mode, and that is to help get the mind flowing with thoughts about the strengths and weaknesses of both discrimination modes.

I seriously doubt that the MXT has a problem,. I think it is just a new year, you haven't picked up the basic knowledge of it yet, and maybe some extra reading has left you confused.

Sometimes you might read of others who have had a real problem with their detector and it did need repair. maybe something minor or only a coil out of spec. other times you might have simply read about someones frustration with their detector when, in reality, it wasn't the detector's problem in the first place! So, don't worry about a need for repair. Just use your MXT, in both Discriminate mode, and with all the coils you have, and master what it can do for you. Just go use it, with the proper settings.

3 times today, 3 different people.

End result
"Run it in the Relic Primary Mode, then , if it performs the best"
(which means, I cant utilize the faster SAT speeds)

Alternate Mode "MIGHT" work better if I turn OFF the machine, then turn it on, in the alt mode. to let it ground balance in that mode.
(which means I cant switch on the fly)

Having worked for a manufacturer and having been involved in this industry for a long, long time, I can tell you that there are times the person might not quite understand what you (or anyone else) is trying to say. that could have been the problem.

Also, know you know there is no SAT speed adjustment or setting in the C&J mode or Relic mode, so your statement there is wrong.

Also, the MXT, if set to ground tracking, with adjust the Ground Balance in any of the modes you're hunting in, regardless of the trigger center or trigger forward selection on the standard MXT. After a few sweeps over target-free ground, the MXT's auto-trac circuitry will adjust the GB and then continue to monitor and adjust during your hunt. If you bob the search coil 2 to 5 times over a specific spot of ground that is free of any metal, you can get a proper GB to that ground quickly. That is what I do, then I toggle to 'lock' in order to hold that GB setting. I can quickly re-balance if there is significant changes in the ground mineral make-up.

I like to GB and then 'lock' that setting because the auto-trac can be fooled if you're hunting in an iron infested site as the circuitry can track off from a proper setting to some iron trash. Also if hunting in a mixture of hot and cold rocks, but that's another topic for another time.

The first guy said I could send it in for a check up for $45.00
the second guy said it may have" DRIFTED"
he also said RELIC would NOT sound OFF a 0 to +95 , it only sounds off on -95 to 0 targets, I argued that with him, and he said he'd go check my theory on a floor model. ???
The 3rd guy said run it in Primary then.if thats what works the best.

SO, If they cant help me , then I guess Ive wasted alot of time and money with them.

I don't know the names of those you spoke with, or the actual conversation of what you said, what they asked, how it was answered.

I will say that the first guy 's suggestion that a check-up would maybe help is a good idea .... but only if the MXT is faulty. I don't think it is based upon your above comments.

I know the second guy was wrong if he said the Relic mode would not sound off on a 0 to +05 target because they will. This is another topic we won't address here, other than to say the Relic and C&J modes do have a full-range of acceptance in the Discriminate mode when set to minimum. They work better than some of my other favorite detectors on the market, which is why I have liked the M6's and MXT's I've owned for hunting in some really tough conditions.

The detector can 'drift, as such, but you usually won't notice it because the natural auto-tune circuitry to retain the Threshold is always working. This is a built-in maintenance function and NOT the variable SAT auto-tune you refer to. 'Drift' was a problem we used to encounter a lot before their incorporated a basic auto-retune circuit in the TR, or TR-Disc. or VLF All Metal or VLF (GEB) motion Discriminate modes. This is a striking difference from the variable SAT that is found on the MXT that only functions in the Prospecting All Metal mode.

Terrible customer service in my opinion.

Remember, you get to post on the forums and say their customer service is bad, but they don't post here to let us know they've had a bad day trying to answer questions that they didn't really understand. If they are confused, then they just figure that maybe a tech needs to check the detector out to make sure noting is missed. Thus, they suggest sending it in. And let me assure you, I am not suggesting you are the only one they get calls from who need a little help.

I think it was only a confusing day for you as well as for those you called.

I always read good posts about them, but I sure feel like they either dont know, or they dont care, to help me get lined out.

I am biased here, but will tell you that White's service, in general, and customer service is not bettered by any other manufacturer. They set the mark for getting it done, done right, and helping the consumer.

I was hopeing it was operator error.

Unless I am way off on my interpretation of your settings and your understanding of the MXT and the MXT controls, I do believe it is only operator error.

But, when I hear, "just run in Primary" or "it may have drifted" or " send it in and for $45.00 we'll test it out"
Not a good day for me.

Let's just say they might have been confused by the discussion.

Let me hope that I have provided the correct presumption of the cause for your concerns, and that you will not only use the variable SAT setting in the Prospecting mode, and use the Discrimination control in the C&J and Relic discriminating modes to adjust for the more annoying trash at a site.

Get out and use the MXT. It is truly one of the best detectors on the market today. Perhaps you're just too new to the MXT and need to learn it better, before reading the MXT Edge book, and in the future you will master it and take advantage of things the book might help with later on.

Please, don't take offense to anything I said personally, because I come across a lot of people who can easily be overwhelmed with some of the basic adjustments found on out modern metal detectors.

Happy Hunting and enjoy your MXT!

Monte

 

[Joel-Winnipeg]

Well explained Monte.
I also own and use the older MXT
I sent a BHID to get the falsing coil repaired a year ago
and I new it was an expensive replacement going from
the 9.5 floater to the 12inch.
Whites did a splendid conversion and there service was top notch.

 

[fsa46]

Another informative post by Monte. I can't wait until Dusty gets to read his reply to see if that was/is the problem.

When I got my MXT Pro and read some of the replies Monte had posted on the MXTs, I did a search on the replies by him in the MXT forum and printed EVERY reply that would be of help to a newcomer like myself. I can't tell you how many times I referred to them to get me on the right path, not to mention some personal correspondence.

 

[djbutch]

I have been a whites man for 35 years and never ever had that happen to me. I have had some trouble with machines called and they said send it in they were out of warrenty when they shipped them back it was two brand new machines no questions ask.You can't beat that with a stick

Butch in New Hampshire.

 

[MeMatt]

The Primary is quieter, of course, on account of the slower SAT speed.

Here is where you sort of lost me because the SAT speed (Self-Adjusting Threshold or auto-tune) is a variable function of the Dual-control when you are in the All Metal Prospecting mode. In the Coin & Jewelry or Relic discriminating modes, that dual-control adjusts the Discriminate rejection point. There is no "slower SAT" as a function of the Discriminate operation for Relic or C&J.

In the Relic Alt. and Coin & Jewelry mode, the all metal portion of the mixed mode audio uses a higher "internally fixed" SAT speed giving it noisier, not so smooth threshold hum.

The Relic Primary mode, on the other hand, uses a slower "internally fixed" SAT speed giving it a quieter, smoother threshold sound. So, when he toggles from Relic Alt. to Primary, he should get, as he says, "quieter" operation.

In Jeff Foster's book, The MXT Edge, he claims the difference in the threshold quietness and jittering is due to the variance of the internally fixed SAT speed between the C&J, Relic, and Relic Alt modes.

When I toggle between Relic and Relic Alt., I definately notice the difference in threshold stability (quietness). The Primary is quieter.

Just thought I'd respond to this because Dusty, from what I've read, appears to be correct about this.
Then again, maybe I'm having a brain cramp

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Marxman]

Douglas,

Mark

 

[Monte]

The Primary is quieter, of course, on account of the slower SAT speed.

It might have just been the way I read Dusty's posts that I felt/feel he still has the Disc. control and SAT function confused. by that I mean he may, from what I could guess, have used the higher preset marker on the Disc. control thinking it might vary the SAT speed. he mentioned poor results on target detection when switching between Primary and ALT and, naturally, that could be associated with a higher Discriminate level setting when doing that.

Here is where you sort of lost me because the SAT speed (Self-Adjusting Threshold or auto-tune) is a variable function of the Dual-control when you are in the All Metal Prospecting mode. In the Coin & Jewelry or Relic discriminating modes, that dual-control adjusts the Discriminate rejection point. There is no "slower SAT" as a function of the Discriminate operation for Relic or C&J.

This was to clarify that the variable SAT control is not an adjustable function of any internally-set component and calibration design. he doesn't have control of the SAT speed, that's what I was trying to convey to him.

In the Relic Alt. and Coin & Jewelry mode, the all metal portion of the mixed mode audio uses a higher "internally fixed" SAT speed giving it noisier, not so smooth threshold hum.

The Relic Primary mode, on the other hand, uses a slower "internally fixed" SAT speed giving it a quieter, smoother threshold sound. So, when he toggles from Relic Alt. to Primary, he should get, as he says, "quieter" operation.

In Jeff Foster's book, The MXT Edge, he claims the difference in the threshold quietness and jittering is due to the variance of the internally fixed SAT speed between the C&J, Relic, and Relic Alt modes.

The 'MXT Edge' book might 'claim' certain differences, but I that would suggest, by what you said, that the Relic Alt and C&J 'modes' use a similar internally designed SAT and that would make them a little noisier. That's not always been the case for me, having owned six (6) MXT's. On one of the six I had the absolutely smoothest, calmest Coin & Jewelry function of any of them, and it also seemed to hit a little cleaner on the same deeper coin when I checked the two modes. I have owned some where the C&J was noisier than the Relic program, too.

I learned, long ago, that simple changes in component tolerance, tweaking or other little variables can make a notable difference.

Still, I don't think he was referring to Jeff Foster's book. If so, maybe he could have noted the specific page to help clarify his understanding. While Jeff's write up might be technically correct, and your comment can certainly explain a slight difference in noise or stability, that has nothing to do with Dusty's comment about the target response when switching between the two relic mode functions. I still believe he might have had the Disc./SAT control set higher. perhaps at the second factory preset marker, and maybe due to confusion about this control and the modes it functions with.

When I toggle between Relic and Relic Alt., I definately notice the difference in threshold stability (quietness). The Primary is quieter.

Just thought I'd respond to this because Dusty, from what I've read, appears to be correct about this.
Then again, maybe I'm having a brain cramp

Thanks,
Matt

Well, we can all have those 'brain cramp' moments. I didn't respond immediately to his post, but after thinking about it, and the reading his follow-up responses on the forum, I just feel it was an early season control adjustment error. If he reads the post and reviews his comments and settings, maybe Dusty will clarify it for us?

Now, let's all get out detecting!

Monte

 

[Dustyroundup]

Geez !

LOL

Alrighty,
Mematt, Thanks, you understood completely, what I was saying about the SAT Speed differences, between RELIC PRIMARY vs the C&J/ Relic ALTERNATE modes.

And yes, Primary being the MIDDLE position of the trigger .
Alternate being the FORWARD position

(Whites said they dont use the same nomenclature, but its in the book that way, and yes, that was one of the things that caused confusion with them.)

Anyhow, Monte, I apreciatte very much you taking the time to help me figure this out. Its much more help than I got from the manufacturer.
And , I really hope this IS OPERATOR ERROR. otherwise, where does that leave me ? after dealing with 3 guys that didnt impress me at all !

This is a brand new machine purchased last year by me. I dont feel I should pay an extra $45.00, after spending $800. . and I certainly wont be paying any more of my money , to people that I have lost faith in.
I took it out tonight, for a bit. (the MXT). And , I dont know, I think at this point, I might be looking for something that isnt there, just because I'm upset with this whole thing. So , I did my best to stay on the fence, so to speak.

So, I find a good target , in RELIC PRIMARY< (trigger middle position),, Disc at 0, Gain at preset, Thesh at barely audible.

I was looking for solid signals, the best I could find, then Id mark the spot(scrape my boot heel) then Id switch to RELIC ALTERNATE( trigger forward position) and Id sweep around outside of area a bit , then Id sweep over the marked spot. the VDI ALWAYS was different. 10 - 20 VDI's below.
Example ,originally , a good 78 VDI, would come in at 68 and bounce to 56 VDI.
I tried this for an hour, and it does the same thing on all "solid targets"

When I find a target in" Primary", then switch to "Alternate" WITHOUT sweeping around outside of that target area, it tends to not even notice/recognize the target. ( I think thats
I dont know , Like I said, even to Whites guys, I hope it is me that is doing something wrong. and I hope I can figure it out somehow.
But, if it isnt me , and I'm supposed to monkey around with this machine, (like not being able to switch on the fly) then its going to really irk me that an $800.00 machine isnt holding its own.


I can also say , that last year, and twice at the beginning of this year, I always did just fine with it. But right now its not acting the same.

I'm definitely not having fun , and I'm losing the "BUG" to get out with it.

I treat this thing better than ANYTHING I own, just ask the family. LOL
Not once has it been dropped , or got wet,not a single rain drop. etc, heck, after I use it, I let it sit out and adjust to room temp so it doesnt get condensed moisture before I put it in the case.
I pull the batts out every time I get done.

The only thing that is different, is I put a coil cover on it recently, but I made sure the coil was dry. and I ran a bead of silicone around the seam.

????????? Maybe I should pull that cover off??? and check it out?

I just thought of that, so , I guess I'll see what I can find.

Monte, another feller, told me to sweep faster in RELIC ALT, because the SAT is faster than when in Primary .
he said, 2 feet per second, but I tried that tonight, and heck, thats about what I sweep anyhow.
so I tried different sweep speeds. slower, and faster, and it didnt seem to make a difference.


Well, thanks for all your help.

Dusty

 

[Monte]

I better understand what your issues might be now. I think, maybe, I just read your posts similar to how I would have read others (and have) where the operator misadjusted the Disc. / SAT control and that might have been the cause.

Now, having read this post, I'll borrow a friend's MXT Monday or Tuesday and try to duplicate it. I never had an issue with any of the MXT's I have owned, or those I have borrowed and used as well.

I didn't have the difference in VDI's that you are reporting so, at this point, I think it might be a glitch with your MXT. I wish you were close because others, like me, just take their detector to White's shortly after they open and, in little time at all, they have it taken care of. Sometimes I'll go grab lunch, but my detector is always ready when I return.

Do you have another search coil to try? The only issue could be a coil problem, but I doubt that because the VDI's differ by mode.

All the best to you. Did you buy it from a local dealer?

Monte

 

[MeMatt]

I was just a bit confused Thank you for the clarification. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I appreciate the time you take to help others with their questions and concerns.

Thanks again,
Matt