Can Somebody Tell Me Where To Find The Said Ability Of The Coil Or Detector To See Two Targets At Once & Report Them Separately?

[Critterhunter]

I've read several people make reference to the fact that these FBS2 coils are special in that they have electronics in them to see and track two separate targets at once under the coil. I've searched for this information but can't seem to find anything in relation to that. From what I can find thus far in the technical material I don't see any reference to this, but maybe I missed it?

I see the information on the machine's ability to display two target points on the screen at once, but that doesn't really answer my question. It is possible for a machine to plot two target points on a screen as the coil passes over one target, reports it's VDI on the screen, and then moves on (coil detection field leaves that target and then moves on to the next one) to the other and report it's VDI response as well, but unless I'm missing something that's not really any leap in unmasking ability? It's just noting the first target and then the second one as you swing over one and then the other. It still requires the detection field to move on so that it is not "lighting up" the first target and then can see the next one.

Obviously on any machine where two targets are suspected to be present people just wiggle over the one and then over the other to see the ID of both separately. That would also be a much more accurate way to positively ID your targets, because when two targets are both washed in the coil's detection field at the same time (and have to be laying at the same depth and side by side for this to even be able to happen), the limits of what you can gleam from what a VLF detection field can tell you...results in an averaged number of the combined total conductivity of both items...And I would think FBS2 would still have to obey the laws of physics in that respect.

Because from what I have always read about VLF technology and physics in terms of the coil's field dynamics, two targets in the coil's field at the same time are simply averaged together on the conductivity scale...And the only way a coil's field can see both at once is if they are both laying at the same depth and so close to each other that they would probably have to be touching. IE: The field can not hit a shallower trash item and still continue further down in depth to see a deeper coin. Once the field hits the first metal target it sees it in effect "bursts" or warps around that object and has no ability to go deeper.

I'd be very interested in reading how these apparently static physical laws of nature could be broken in some way. Assuming and expecting that they can't, what wins in unmasking ability is the machine using the sharpest detection field it can (as thin as it can be in the left/right perspective), such as the excellent ability the 12x10 has in this respect, so that it can "light up" the good item and not the trash, as by all rights that is going to give you the truest ID on a target...While, when two targets are soaking in the field at the same time (being that they are at the same depth and close to each other) there simply isn't any way I'm aware of to break apart that signal into two distinct items....But rather the signal is averaged somewhere halfway between the differing conductive nature of the two. If that's still the case then the best way of unmasking is still to try via a sharp field to light up the one target and not the other next to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'll I'm seeing is the ability to mark one VDI number on the screen and then the next the coil passes over as it sees them SEPARATELY, and not some unique way to break apart the averaged signal of two targets seen both at once, and thus reveal their true nature in ID. If that's the case then a sharper stick still wins over a blunter one in terms of being able to "poke" one object and not another laying right next to it. Sure, being able to visual note two target IDs on the screen at once can have it's perks in terms of easily referencing just what two things you just passed over (which would still have to be seen separately by the coil's detection field and not both at once), but if that's the case then it isn't any special unique ability any more so than what VLF has always been able to do. To get the true ID of a target the other target can not be in the field at the same time, and as far as I'm aware no amount of technology can break apart a combined signal and report the true conductivity of both targets in the field. There just isn't enough "vocabulary" in terms of what a VLF field can tell you about it's interaction with metal objects in it's detection field to be able to relate those kinds of details.

Correct me if I'm missing something here, as I may very well have missed some technical content that's been released which covers such a major break through in technology. If I'm wrong please point me to that technical data as I very much look forward to reading exactly how these seemingly static laws of physics have been broken.

This is one of the questions I want clearified before I decide to sell off some "non-essential" items around the house to raise money to buy this detector.

 

[Night Train]

Go to CTX3030.com, on the lower right, click (Take the Tour). There, it is briefly mentioned under FeCo Discrimination.

 

[Critterhunter]

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Critterhunter]

Just did. Here's what it says...

"With Target Trace and Target Separation, you can identify multiple targets simultaneously for accurate detecting results."

That tells me nothing about any special new ability. It can easily mean that the machine will simply display the ID of multiple targets on the screen at once, and not necessarily that it somehow can "see" two targets at once under the coil...At least without averaging the conductivity value of the target. I don't say "target" as plural because when that happens (both being washed in the field at once, and they have to be at the same depth and close to each other for that to even happen)...A machine is in effect seeing one "target", and as an averaged conductivity value. Not two, and reporting them separetly with distinct true conductivity readings.

Unless I'm missing some vast ability of a VLF detection field that I've never read about, you'll still need to see one target at a time without both being washed in the detection field at once, in order to ID the true nature and properties of those two targets, Think of it as trying to read a sign with your eye. In reality you are only reading one word at a time as you read, though it may seem like you are seeing and reading more than one word at a time because your eye is scanning across the page. If you try to say read the top word and another word at the very bottom of the sign at the same time in reality you can't, and thus you don't read anything well when trying to do that but a combined blurry mess. You're eye still has to look at both words separetly. If that is still the case then it still falls down to the coil with the sharpest detection field doing the best job at unmasking two nearby targets.

 

[Digga03]

Dude dont expect any more than that either read minelab manuals and their website on all detectors it will tell you what they say it does and not how it does it, that's probably going to be as good as it gets.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Critterhunter - I don't see the big deal, technically speaking. Perhaps you are reading too much into it or perhaps I am not! eheheh

I see it like this, you know how when you are sweeping in a trashier spot and in one smaller area you might get multiple VID's (with a faster machine)?
Well, just plot those instead of just the last one - which is what a machine normally does. I suggested this a while ago as a way to deal with trashier conditions but I was just thinking VID, not Display.
Also, the CTX is using another type of coil, appears to be a chip in there.

So, perhaps the CTX is just using some much quicker processing in order to do that, along with the chip in the coil. I am curious though as how a relatively slower technology like FBS is able to do something that normally only faster machines can (in the sense of not just responding to multiple targets but also displaying each one as it is hit.)

Now, the E-Trac sort of did this in iron. You would often see the iron hit as a bounce and then the coin. It seems like the CTX is taking this to another level AND adding this feature more in depth in its pinpoint mode (where it shows them on the screen, frozen).

Am I close?
Albert

 

[Digga03]

i have no idea but it sounds good, not sure we are meant to understand all this new info in a few days that took minelab at least 4 years of work

 

[bfodnes]

Here is what i think..

First of all, the screen you see is not a picture of the ground as it is in real 3d life.

Some thinks that if you see a target down right in the screen and one in the middle of the screen that is the way they are arranged in ground. NO...its not a map.

What you see is the ID coordinates of those objects or one compsite object that can be read differently or even several objects.

If you have a nail very close to a coin or maybe even partly hiding it you should get a screen with an ID in the nail region and an ID in the coin region, not a picture of a nail ontop of a coin.. see..

Since it ID s in the coin region you will get your coin signal but you will only see the nail on screen cause most likely you have the nail ID portion of the screen inside the transparent disc pattern... and you will not hear it.

So how is this possible..

It must be because the machine can make several IDs each 10th of a second and sends them to the screen. Like many pulses that gets it own reading or even like a film taken off the detecting field where every frame gets its own ID.

 

[Digga03]

so you see the nail and hear the coin ?

 

[bfodnes]

You see both in the pic and you see both coins in the pic somewhere with two coins.

With the transparent disc screen, it must show you the ferrous ID s but filter out the sound from it.

Both pics show the screen from the detect screen so it has to be coordinates fe/co we see.

 

[CDDZ]

Just thinking,
You could run this detector with zero disc and just set the tones to the zones you want....
wow, i was a poet and didn't know it

 

[earthmansurfer]

Just thinking,
You could run this detector with zero disc and just set the tones to the zones you want....
wow, i was a poet and didn't know it

Nice, & if it already can't then in an update perhaps an iron or tone zone volume control! Really can help with unmasking.

 

[TerraDigger]

Re: Question on Target Trace Digger
Posted by: TerraDigger [ Send a Message ]
Date: May 11, 2012 11:38PM
Registered: 1 year ago
Posts: 1,654
My question is this.....is the multi-target display a visual redundancy of the audio signal one would get, using the penny-nickel 2" apart example. My machine (non-Minelab) when outfitted with a DD coil will discern each target via audio/VDI, a penny-nickel 2" apart. Was the depth 7cm (2.76"). If not 7cm depth, what was depth of targets?


This is a copy of my recent post. Anyone care to venture if this is a visual based redundancy of what the audio capabilities already provide on several makes of detectors including the CTX. Also, to what depth does the Target Trace accurately work on coin sized targets? How many targets can be analyzed simultaneously under the coil?

 

[Critterhunter]

If you have a nail very close to a coin or maybe even partly hiding it you should get a screen with an ID in the nail region and an ID in the coin region, not a picture of a nail ontop of a coin.. see..

To avoid being redundant I'll just say refer to my prior posts in this thread for details...That what I've read about what a VLF detection field can tell you is very limited, and so it looks to be impossible to break apart two targets seen at the same time and ID them separately. I'm not even claiming that Minelab is indeed even saying it has that ability until I have more to read, so right now it's a mute point, but some people hinted that. Anxiously awaiting further technical data from Minelab on these aspects, so that's all I'll have to say until more is known. This is one of the key things I want clarified before I decide to buy one or not.

 

[stasys]

I can agree with Critterhunter about impossibility to get two targets at once, and can add that all what we will see is much more simple, but maybe I m wrong if Mineal collaborated with UFO

 

[bfodnes]

" what a VLF detection field " yes...

Head engineer at Minelab, Cody once said in a post that the fbs is a derivative of the pulsetechnology, i wont speculate more into that.

And the patents mention time domain.

What if it really can take several pulses of id in a short moment of time.

In the brochure there is several pics of this detecting screen even with explanation of what it do but not how it works.

If this is the case it will make you want one, especially if it works good too.

 

[JBE_Iowa]

I would say it sees the targets faster than we could and plots them On the screen signaling On the strongest, kind of find it hard to believe both targets are being seen at the exact same time, appears that way because of how fast it happens.

Joe

 

[bfodnes]

I wonder if it signals on the strongest.

I think it signals if any of the ID s come into your open disc setting. If you look at the pics some of the objects show up inside the disced out part on the screen. It is transparent but have a function anyway.

 

[bfodnes]

Codan are heavy in military equipment, they probably was dripped some of the captured Roswell stuff...