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Compare The Competition To Your Sovereign Or Excal
- Thread starter Critterhunter
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
Land hunting and beach are two different birds. It's nothing for the Sovereign to double it's depth on the beach. For land hunting about max depth on a coin I've read for the Sovereign using the stock 10" coil (and even an 8" CoinSearch coil) is 12 or 13 inches. On the Explorer/Etrac that's about the max I've ever heard those machines have dug coins, but I hear far more commonly about the VDI dropping out on those machines or at least being highly suspect once you get past about 7 to 9" in depth. I know it was for me on the Explorer. On the beach 14 to 16" or deeper seems to be about average for coin/ring sized targets on the Sovereign/Excal using the stock 10" coil, with some claiming depths of over two feet, at least when using an S-12, WOT, or SEF. No hard and fast rules here, and we all know there are exceptions to every rule due to coil, ground conditions, user ability, etc. My point is that nobody can tell me that the Etrac or Explorer is deeper. Too many people say the exact reverse of that. When there is opinions either way on a subject such as depth that usually means the results are pretty similar. I don't hear many low frequency Whites users debating the depth of those machines versus a Minelab. That's the whole point to the above.
Really, at least in my soil, max depth of the best machines seems to top out at about 7.5" max on a silver dime. Nothing I ever used got deeper than that, and the QXT Pro was the machine that I felt gave me that little extra bit of depth. The difference between .25 and 1/2" came mean the difference between success and failure at a site. That was why I was never impressed with my Explorers. I kept going back to those units and setting them up in every possible way you can think of, listening to advice off the net, and yet never did I once see any of the three machines I owned get any deeper than a QXT Pro on silver/copper targets. I dug by tone, I hunted with no iron mask, I changed sensitivity from low to high to auto. I changed my sweep technique. I did every single thing you can ever think of in the hopes that I would start popping silvers deeper than my QXT Pro. Never happened. Well, I can think of perhaps once or twice where I felt it did get a hair deeper on silver, but those were silver items bigger than a half dollar, which I would expect the QXT Pro to also get a bit deeper on.
Only with the GT have I finally broke that 7.5" barrier on silver or copper coins in the dime/penny sized. I've dug my two deepest coins thus far using the stock 10" coil- a V nickle at about 11" and an indian at about the same depth. Never in my life have I seen a machine get that kind of depth on coins and hit that hard/ID perfectly on them. This was at a site that my Explorers never got nearly as deep at, again only maxing out at perhaps 7 to 7.5" on silver/copper coins in the dime/penny size. Sure, I even ignored the ID and went by tone. I even went by a really bad tone that was lower than what I would expect. Nothing. I'm sure it differs based on people's soil. That's the only thing I can figure out, because my Explorers in no way lived up to the depth reputation others gave them. The depth of a QXT Pro with far more hassle in setup and use, so after 3 of them I went again back to the QXT Pro. Why put up with all that extra trouble and keeping the machine under control when it never got better results?
That's why I figured I'd try a Sovereign out before saving up to buy an Etrac or perhaps a T2 or F75LTD, although now I hear the Omega (lower frequency) is said to be by some deeper on silver/copper than the T2. I'm still looking for opinions on that, because it's down to these machines as the next to sit along side my GT in my line up....
T2 or F75 LTD, Omega, AT Pro (Looks good and I like that it's a light weight water/land unit, but it's still a Garrett, so I have high doubts), or an Etrac. I see some guys went to the T2, F75, or Omega from an Etrac and swear they get as much or better depth with far less hassle, not to mention less weight. I'm sure that comes down to your soil type. If anybody has any input on those machines let me know how they perform in medium to high mineral content for you compared to your Minelab. I have a feeling that even if the AT Pro isn't a depth monster it's still going to sell very well, because it's the perfect machine for those who want to land and water hunt using a light weight machine that has a full LCD screen. That's unique in a water unit, being dual purpose and all that.
Really, at least in my soil, max depth of the best machines seems to top out at about 7.5" max on a silver dime. Nothing I ever used got deeper than that, and the QXT Pro was the machine that I felt gave me that little extra bit of depth. The difference between .25 and 1/2" came mean the difference between success and failure at a site. That was why I was never impressed with my Explorers. I kept going back to those units and setting them up in every possible way you can think of, listening to advice off the net, and yet never did I once see any of the three machines I owned get any deeper than a QXT Pro on silver/copper targets. I dug by tone, I hunted with no iron mask, I changed sensitivity from low to high to auto. I changed my sweep technique. I did every single thing you can ever think of in the hopes that I would start popping silvers deeper than my QXT Pro. Never happened. Well, I can think of perhaps once or twice where I felt it did get a hair deeper on silver, but those were silver items bigger than a half dollar, which I would expect the QXT Pro to also get a bit deeper on.
Only with the GT have I finally broke that 7.5" barrier on silver or copper coins in the dime/penny sized. I've dug my two deepest coins thus far using the stock 10" coil- a V nickle at about 11" and an indian at about the same depth. Never in my life have I seen a machine get that kind of depth on coins and hit that hard/ID perfectly on them. This was at a site that my Explorers never got nearly as deep at, again only maxing out at perhaps 7 to 7.5" on silver/copper coins in the dime/penny size. Sure, I even ignored the ID and went by tone. I even went by a really bad tone that was lower than what I would expect. Nothing. I'm sure it differs based on people's soil. That's the only thing I can figure out, because my Explorers in no way lived up to the depth reputation others gave them. The depth of a QXT Pro with far more hassle in setup and use, so after 3 of them I went again back to the QXT Pro. Why put up with all that extra trouble and keeping the machine under control when it never got better results?
That's why I figured I'd try a Sovereign out before saving up to buy an Etrac or perhaps a T2 or F75LTD, although now I hear the Omega (lower frequency) is said to be by some deeper on silver/copper than the T2. I'm still looking for opinions on that, because it's down to these machines as the next to sit along side my GT in my line up....
T2 or F75 LTD, Omega, AT Pro (Looks good and I like that it's a light weight water/land unit, but it's still a Garrett, so I have high doubts), or an Etrac. I see some guys went to the T2, F75, or Omega from an Etrac and swear they get as much or better depth with far less hassle, not to mention less weight. I'm sure that comes down to your soil type. If anybody has any input on those machines let me know how they perform in medium to high mineral content for you compared to your Minelab. I have a feeling that even if the AT Pro isn't a depth monster it's still going to sell very well, because it's the perfect machine for those who want to land and water hunt using a light weight machine that has a full LCD screen. That's unique in a water unit, being dual purpose and all that.
If there is nothing else in the ground , the Sovereign does very well ....If anything else is nearby , the Sovereign can't even read the good target that is deep ....If it reads anything at all , it reads somewhat of an AVERAGE number of the two or three targets that are nearby ....The good target is MASKED and the Sovereign can NOT read the good targets number , nor can it produce the good targets tone !!...... IF it's far enough away , and it has to be far away, you will be able to read the good target ..... The E Trac , even when deep, can pickup the actual GOOD target even if there are bad targets around it ..... it will CLEARLY identify the good target along with the bad targets and has the newer technology to do so .....No guess work with the E Trac .... Again the Sovereign definatlely has good depth, and great TID , but ONLY if there are no other targets around to interfere with the good target ...... Discrimination is FAR SUPERIOR on the E Trac when compared to the Sovereign ......The Explorer II's are still OLD technology compared to the E Trac ..... I would not move to an Explorer II from a Sovereign either, but I would move to an Explorer SE Pro or an E Trac in a NY minute ....More money ? .....They sure are , but you get what you pay for in spades ..... Jim
Critterhunter
New member
Last message in this thread I just posted is about the same topic.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1293994,page=8
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1293994,page=8
I been reading most of these post on this forum, but sitting back and seeing what others think and feel the Sovereign is as good as you learn it. For me I like it and have faith in it that it will get many good targets close to trash items IF YOU KNOW YOUR SOVEREIGN, this is where experience come to play in actual hunting conditions and not air test or test gardens. By digging many iffy signals you soon will know what is good and what is bad, but I still do dig some trash targets that fool me, but nowhere close to what i do with the Explorers or even the E-Trac. I am getting better with the E-Tac and feel this maybe the only detector that can replace my Sovereign as my reg coin shooter.I was very impressed the first time out with the E-Trac as some of the area I could never work with the Explorers because of the trash became easy to work and got me some older coins we have missed for years. When I first started to use it in this area I felt it wasn't working as it ran so smooth compared to the Explorers.
Now on the Sovereigns I have dug coins that have been touching nails and other iron and been able to get the right tones or so close to them plus the meter reading even though it was nulling i could wiggle it just right to get coin signal, so it can and will get coins close to iron, but you have to know your Sovereigns. I have got nickles in with dimes and will say it does average these a bit, but you know the tone is just not right compared to trash items. The best was one beside one another as I got a 180 one way and when coming for a 90 degree angle got the 145 and was repeatable so when dug using my S-1 probe found the nickle than the dime about a inch apart. Another one I remember was at a old park and could get a repeatable signal that sounded different then any pull tab and would read 170 on the meter and deeper sounding. The number would be changing from a different angle, but still stayed in the 165-170 and like I say sounded different so I had to dig it. Dug a plug and there was a barber dime and a merc dime with a buffalo sandwich between them.
Like Minelab said the E-Trac is no Explorer even though they look the same they are run different and the E-Trac could be the detector that could replace my Sovereign as my main coin-shooter once I get to know it more.
Now on the Sovereigns I have dug coins that have been touching nails and other iron and been able to get the right tones or so close to them plus the meter reading even though it was nulling i could wiggle it just right to get coin signal, so it can and will get coins close to iron, but you have to know your Sovereigns. I have got nickles in with dimes and will say it does average these a bit, but you know the tone is just not right compared to trash items. The best was one beside one another as I got a 180 one way and when coming for a 90 degree angle got the 145 and was repeatable so when dug using my S-1 probe found the nickle than the dime about a inch apart. Another one I remember was at a old park and could get a repeatable signal that sounded different then any pull tab and would read 170 on the meter and deeper sounding. The number would be changing from a different angle, but still stayed in the 165-170 and like I say sounded different so I had to dig it. Dug a plug and there was a barber dime and a merc dime with a buffalo sandwich between them.
Like Minelab said the E-Trac is no Explorer even though they look the same they are run different and the E-Trac could be the detector that could replace my Sovereign as my main coin-shooter once I get to know it more.
Humor me .......A quick experiment please ......I will make this as simple as I can .........Dig a hole about 4-5 inches deep, and about 6 inches or so round .....Place a quarter in the hole as flat as you can .....Remember where this quarter is in the hole ...Fill in the hole with about 3 inched of dirt ......Place a 10d common nail off to the side about 2 inches away from the quarter ....Fill the hole with the rest of the dirt and cover approx 1 to 2 inches of dirt ....... Since this is fresh dirt and neither the quarter , nor the nail have any time to bond with the soil , I kept the depths very shallow for this experiment ..... Pack your dirt down good and run your coil over the area and tell me what readings you get ...... and just to be inpartial , I don't care whether you have Iron Mask On or Off .......Jim
Rick,
There are times when you can do the Sovereign "wiggle" and get a reading on coins , and there are other times when you can't .....The times that you can't are generally times when iron is involved ....Sure it's easy to run the higher numbers up when there are ANY coins involved ....Actuallly as long as you don't have nickels involved , your numbers will always average out to the 170's , but there are more chances of iron being in the hole than other coins ....I'm not saying that there are not such things as coin spills , I am saying that there are more chances of nails or other such iron trash being in the hole along side of a good target .... My experiment is merely showing a common ordinary nail not far from a coin .....I would like to know what everyone gets for a reading ..... AND if anyone while getting this reading can get a 180 out of the burried quarter ......Simple test .....Thanks, Jim
There are times when you can do the Sovereign "wiggle" and get a reading on coins , and there are other times when you can't .....The times that you can't are generally times when iron is involved ....Sure it's easy to run the higher numbers up when there are ANY coins involved ....Actuallly as long as you don't have nickels involved , your numbers will always average out to the 170's , but there are more chances of iron being in the hole than other coins ....I'm not saying that there are not such things as coin spills , I am saying that there are more chances of nails or other such iron trash being in the hole along side of a good target .... My experiment is merely showing a common ordinary nail not far from a coin .....I would like to know what everyone gets for a reading ..... AND if anyone while getting this reading can get a 180 out of the burried quarter ......Simple test .....Thanks, Jim
Critterhunter
New member
There are several remarks in the above quotes about the SE, and here's yet another from somebody in this very thread...
I'll probably dig up and post some more posts in a day or two about the SE, Etrac, and other Explorer models, as I've read several remarks about all of them compared to the Sovereign here and there. It'll take me a little time to dig more up, though. I'll probably dig through some private conversations I've had and find the ones where a few guys owning the SE or Etrac to post, but I need to scruntinize/edit them for privacy reasons, because a few of these guys wouldn't dare make any statements in public. I really wish I could tell the story about a certain high visibility Etrac guy who secrectly got rid of his machine. I know the guy he sold it to and the condition was he didn't want anybody to know he sold it to go back to another machine in order to avoid controversy. Turns out my friend who bought the Etrac ended up selling it as well after a few months and went to an SE, then he sold the SE. I personaly know another guy who also owned an Etrac and he also got rid of it in favor of I think a T2 or a F75. Just saying everybody who goes to an SE or Etrac doesn't have some form of spiratual experience where they forsake all other machines from here forward. Different strokes for different folks. Some swear some of these machines are deeper in their soil than an FBS unit, Etrac or not.
I'm not trying to make it sound like the SE or Etrac is a bad machine. Of course they're not, and if I had a grand burning a hole in my pocket right now I'd probably buy an Etrac just to toy with. I'm in need of another computerized detector in my line up. Still, I might opt for an Omega or a T2 or F75LTD. Might have to research the G2 as well. I've seen were some former Etrac or SE guys went over to these machines and are claiming as good or better depth, at least in their ground. My main concerns about those machines is the high frequency, which doesn't get very good depth in my high mineral soil and also doesn't bang as hard at depth on silver/copper from my experience with machines I've owned in the past that ran at higher frequencies. That might very well be why FBS machines don't do well for me as far as depth goes, because they have more/much higher frequencies than the BBS Sovereigns. Never saw much point in providing that high of frequencies when the Sovereigns have plenty high enough frequencies at their top end to bang hard on gold, really a good bit higher at the high end than needed IMO.
I strongly believe that separation ability is largely owed to the coil's ability and not the machine. That's why I think the SE and Etrac get better separation than prior Explorers- due to the Pro Coil. The versions of the 10" coil that came and went on the Explorers were bad coils all around. For some reason the stock 10" Tornado on the GT is much better than those were. If the coil can't see both targets next to each other in the ground then no amount of software matters, period, and however good the electronics are in an SE or Etrac that does *nothing* in terms of improving the coil's ability to see those two targets. Doesn't matter what you stuff in the control box, it can't change what the coil's dynamic field does...period.
Sure, when they are both being soaked in the coil's field together at the same time then it's up to the machine to sound off to the good target, and the Sovereign is great at that thanks to Iron Mask. Also, if I can place two targets side by side and easily see them both seperately using proper coil technique (which is much easier to do with the 12x10 than the stock coil), then that's as good as it gets. With standard DD coils in that size range (10" or more) and their more fuzzy, less well defined magnetic fields I can see the SE/Etrac having better ability in that respect thanks to the Pro Coil, but stick a 12x10 on the GT and my money is on pretty much no difference in unmasking ability for the most part. Sure, there might be situations were the SE/Etrac can hit the coin easier, but I wager that's due to the Sovereign not being swung at the proper (slower) speed and using the coil in the proper way to sniff things out. Faster recovery speed means nothing, other than being able to swing the coil like you are launching a golf ball and still having some ability to see the two targets.
AgileMJOLNIR said:
I'll probably dig up and post some more posts in a day or two about the SE, Etrac, and other Explorer models, as I've read several remarks about all of them compared to the Sovereign here and there. It'll take me a little time to dig more up, though. I'll probably dig through some private conversations I've had and find the ones where a few guys owning the SE or Etrac to post, but I need to scruntinize/edit them for privacy reasons, because a few of these guys wouldn't dare make any statements in public. I really wish I could tell the story about a certain high visibility Etrac guy who secrectly got rid of his machine. I know the guy he sold it to and the condition was he didn't want anybody to know he sold it to go back to another machine in order to avoid controversy. Turns out my friend who bought the Etrac ended up selling it as well after a few months and went to an SE, then he sold the SE. I personaly know another guy who also owned an Etrac and he also got rid of it in favor of I think a T2 or a F75. Just saying everybody who goes to an SE or Etrac doesn't have some form of spiratual experience where they forsake all other machines from here forward. Different strokes for different folks. Some swear some of these machines are deeper in their soil than an FBS unit, Etrac or not.
I'm not trying to make it sound like the SE or Etrac is a bad machine. Of course they're not, and if I had a grand burning a hole in my pocket right now I'd probably buy an Etrac just to toy with. I'm in need of another computerized detector in my line up. Still, I might opt for an Omega or a T2 or F75LTD. Might have to research the G2 as well. I've seen were some former Etrac or SE guys went over to these machines and are claiming as good or better depth, at least in their ground. My main concerns about those machines is the high frequency, which doesn't get very good depth in my high mineral soil and also doesn't bang as hard at depth on silver/copper from my experience with machines I've owned in the past that ran at higher frequencies. That might very well be why FBS machines don't do well for me as far as depth goes, because they have more/much higher frequencies than the BBS Sovereigns. Never saw much point in providing that high of frequencies when the Sovereigns have plenty high enough frequencies at their top end to bang hard on gold, really a good bit higher at the high end than needed IMO.
I strongly believe that separation ability is largely owed to the coil's ability and not the machine. That's why I think the SE and Etrac get better separation than prior Explorers- due to the Pro Coil. The versions of the 10" coil that came and went on the Explorers were bad coils all around. For some reason the stock 10" Tornado on the GT is much better than those were. If the coil can't see both targets next to each other in the ground then no amount of software matters, period, and however good the electronics are in an SE or Etrac that does *nothing* in terms of improving the coil's ability to see those two targets. Doesn't matter what you stuff in the control box, it can't change what the coil's dynamic field does...period.
Sure, when they are both being soaked in the coil's field together at the same time then it's up to the machine to sound off to the good target, and the Sovereign is great at that thanks to Iron Mask. Also, if I can place two targets side by side and easily see them both seperately using proper coil technique (which is much easier to do with the 12x10 than the stock coil), then that's as good as it gets. With standard DD coils in that size range (10" or more) and their more fuzzy, less well defined magnetic fields I can see the SE/Etrac having better ability in that respect thanks to the Pro Coil, but stick a 12x10 on the GT and my money is on pretty much no difference in unmasking ability for the most part. Sure, there might be situations were the SE/Etrac can hit the coin easier, but I wager that's due to the Sovereign not being swung at the proper (slower) speed and using the coil in the proper way to sniff things out. Faster recovery speed means nothing, other than being able to swing the coil like you are launching a golf ball and still having some ability to see the two targets.
I totally agree that knowing your mechine and it's capabilities is the UTMOST of importance ...... I also know that technique is also VERY important ....Hitting targets at various angles , and knowing the various tricks to get good readings etc ...... Part of trying to get a good reading from a target is circling said target and checking it at various angles , and speeds .....The Sovereign "wiggle " is just one example of this ...... The issue here is the fact that you can get BETTER results, faster, from the E Trac 9 times out of 10 without the "wiggle " , and without any additional coils , or any additional moves ...... Between the features , and the technology, and the coil that is already fitted , the package is already there !!..... I don't need to go thru the rituals to hit my target ...I don't have to continue to turn dials and do a wiggle , or go faster of slower ....I can hunt at a decent pace , and get results ..... As said earlier YOU MUST KNOW YOUR MACHINE !!..... The Soveriegn is very easy to understand, and has a limitted amount of features to learn ...It's a great machine at what it does, with what it has to work with .....Learning an E Trac is an entire different ball game .... Most people who sell thier E Trac sold it because they were OVERWHELMED with it and all the features that it had, and didn't have a clue how to set it up ... .....Once the E Trac is learned, and set up properly , it is pretty much a SET IT and FORGET IT machine ...... My E Trac has presets for EVERY different area that I hunt in ..... It's set up COMPLETELY differently from place to place and I don't just mean a little setting here and there ..... Once it's set up for the location that I am detecting in , the only other buttons that i press are the Quick Mask to check a target ..... I STILL circle my target and check it from all angle's whether I search with my E Trac or my Sovereign .... The bottom line is KNOWING YOUR MACHINE .....If you know an E Trac , as well as you know the Soveriegn , only THEN will you know the differences ....You surely CAN"T know the differences going by what other people have told you ......In a court of law , this is called "HERESAY" and is not admisable evidence !!!......It's only when you run BOTH machines , and SEE FOR YOURSELF , that it becomes a fact .... If you belive that the Iron Mask on the Sovereign really helps you unmask targets , then I can completely understand how you belieive it's a better machine than the E Trac ... That in itself is enough evidence for me !!...... When someone can do an experiment , and PROVE the contrary , and you STILL BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE , here lies the problem .... There's no reason for you to even TRY an E Trac ...... I guess it doesn't matter to some people even if you PROVE your point , and they still believe otherwise ...... I offered an easy experiment ......I have heard from NOBODY !!!..... The silence is DEAFENING !!!!...... Maybe nobody has a nail or a quarter .......or maybe the better coil , or the "wiggle " didn't produce any results that some folks might not have wanted to admit to ? .....Either way , I have proved my point ...You can make as many diffent excuses as you want , whether it be a "wiggle " , a coil , or a certain type of soil , or anything else you want to put into the pot , but the FACTS will still remain the FACTS !!....Think about this for a minute ....If I thought that I could do better with my $600 Soveriegn, and thought it was the better machine than my $1500 Etrac , why wouldn't I sell my E Trac and keep the change ? ......I will bet money that truth be told at least 90% of the people who sold their E Tracs sold them NOT KNOWING HOW TO SET THEM UP !!... Jim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odhpMMNfslQ The Sov "not GT" watch the test with the nail half way through.
http://www.mlotv.com/view/394/circle-of-trash/ ETrac video circle of trash.
Try both test as see what you come up with. Like i said all the depth in the world don't mean squat if you don't even know a target is there.
http://www.mlotv.com/view/394/circle-of-trash/ ETrac video circle of trash.
Try both test as see what you come up with. Like i said all the depth in the world don't mean squat if you don't even know a target is there.
Hit this same link and try this with your Soveriegn !!..........Jim
http://www.mlotv.com/view/394/circle-of-trash/
BTW ...This is not MY experiment , this takes MY experiment a step further ....... You don't have to believe ME .....Will you believe Minelab TV ? .......Jim
http://www.mlotv.com/view/394/circle-of-trash/
BTW ...This is not MY experiment , this takes MY experiment a step further ....... You don't have to believe ME .....Will you believe Minelab TV ? .......Jim
From Neil in West Jersey
Using V3's Non-Normalized Settings to Discriminate Out Junk
One of the best (and most overlooked) features of the V3 is its ability to discriminate out junk. With a little tweaking you can enhance its ablility to pass over junk items that are a nuisance while reducing the risk of passing up good targets. This is because the V3 has the ability to expand the VDI scale in the jewelry and junk range. This is accomplished by the following easy steps:
1) Change the frequency setting from Multi Frequency, Best Data to 22.5 Khz.
2) Uncheck the box marked "Normalize"
By unchecking the Normalize button, the VDI scale in the lower end where gold and junk targets are typically found is expanded.
For example, Jefferson Nickels and "peel off" pull tabs both respond with a VDI of 19 when using Best Data. By changing the frequency setting to 22.5 KHZ and unchecking the Normalize box, the VDI of the Jefferson Nickel becomes 58, while the pull tab now responds with a VDI of 46! If you are tired of digging those "peel off" tabs, you can safely discriminate out 46 VDI without risking passing up the nickels.
There are a few things to keep in mind though:
1) You will need to learn a new VDI scale. Normalized data automatically changes the VDI numbers to the 7.5Khz scale, which is the White's standard. Non-Normalized data is displayed in its "raw" form. VDI numbers are different in each of the three frequencies and are not modified to the 7.5Khz scale.
2) While the range is expanded in the lower end of the scale, it becomes compressed in the upper end of the scale. Dimes, quarters and pennies become more difficult to ID. By changing the the frequency to 2.5 KHz, Non-Normalized, the opposite becomes true. The scale is expanded in the silver/copper range, and becomes compressed in the gold/jewelry range. This increases the resolution for silver and copper coins. It now becomes easier to distinguish silver from clad. For example a clad and silver Roosevelt Dime typically respond with VDI numbers ranging from 76-80, a difference of 4. By non-normalizing the data in 2.5 KHz, the clad dime's VDI becomes 50, while the silver dime's VDI becomes 56, difference of 6!
3) By discriminating out ANY VDI numbers, you always run the risk of discriminating out good targets. Gold Jewelry can fall anywhere from the negative numbers all the way up to the coin range. It is a gamble, but in areas where there is an abundance of pull tabs, non-normalized data can make the metal detecting experience more enjoyable.
For a chart showing how different targets respond in each frequency in both normalized and "raw" VDI numbers, (MS Office 2003 or later required) spreadsheet
Using V3's Non-Normalized Settings to Discriminate Out Junk
One of the best (and most overlooked) features of the V3 is its ability to discriminate out junk. With a little tweaking you can enhance its ablility to pass over junk items that are a nuisance while reducing the risk of passing up good targets. This is because the V3 has the ability to expand the VDI scale in the jewelry and junk range. This is accomplished by the following easy steps:
1) Change the frequency setting from Multi Frequency, Best Data to 22.5 Khz.
2) Uncheck the box marked "Normalize"
By unchecking the Normalize button, the VDI scale in the lower end where gold and junk targets are typically found is expanded.
For example, Jefferson Nickels and "peel off" pull tabs both respond with a VDI of 19 when using Best Data. By changing the frequency setting to 22.5 KHZ and unchecking the Normalize box, the VDI of the Jefferson Nickel becomes 58, while the pull tab now responds with a VDI of 46! If you are tired of digging those "peel off" tabs, you can safely discriminate out 46 VDI without risking passing up the nickels.
There are a few things to keep in mind though:
1) You will need to learn a new VDI scale. Normalized data automatically changes the VDI numbers to the 7.5Khz scale, which is the White's standard. Non-Normalized data is displayed in its "raw" form. VDI numbers are different in each of the three frequencies and are not modified to the 7.5Khz scale.
2) While the range is expanded in the lower end of the scale, it becomes compressed in the upper end of the scale. Dimes, quarters and pennies become more difficult to ID. By changing the the frequency to 2.5 KHz, Non-Normalized, the opposite becomes true. The scale is expanded in the silver/copper range, and becomes compressed in the gold/jewelry range. This increases the resolution for silver and copper coins. It now becomes easier to distinguish silver from clad. For example a clad and silver Roosevelt Dime typically respond with VDI numbers ranging from 76-80, a difference of 4. By non-normalizing the data in 2.5 KHz, the clad dime's VDI becomes 50, while the silver dime's VDI becomes 56, difference of 6!
3) By discriminating out ANY VDI numbers, you always run the risk of discriminating out good targets. Gold Jewelry can fall anywhere from the negative numbers all the way up to the coin range. It is a gamble, but in areas where there is an abundance of pull tabs, non-normalized data can make the metal detecting experience more enjoyable.
For a chart showing how different targets respond in each frequency in both normalized and "raw" VDI numbers, (MS Office 2003 or later required) spreadsheet
Wildherre, thanks so much for the info ....
Sounds VERY familiar !!!....... Sounds to me like EXACTLY what Minelab did when they revamped the expanded the scale on the Explorers , and then changed the entire VDI scale on the E Trac .... The E Trac has it's OWN scale ....It does NOT even share the same scale as the older Explorers .....THIS is why it's foolish to even compare the E Trac to older Explorers , or the Sovereign ...... I continue to speak of what goes on in the background and the EVOLVEMENT of the E Trac , but I continue to hear about how good the Iron Mask on the Sovereign works , and how many people have said that it's better and deeper than the E Trac ..... The expanded scale is the reason that the E Trac can differenciate between coins and give them thier own numbers rather than bunch them all into one number like the Sovereign does with the 180 number ..... The expanded scale also allows for better discrimination that make GOOD targets easier to hear ..... Argue all you want ......This is NEW technology that acheives better results for anyone that want's to buy into it ..... If your time is as valuable as mine is , this newer technology is something worth investigating ..... I would not believe it , if I haden't EXPERIENCED It ...... It's an eye opener to say the least ...... GOOD detecting is hard enough and we all have enough to contend with especially with all the various soll types , and mineralizations ...... Granted , there are times when you don't need this technology ....If you are in a field and there are few targets, and you are pretty much digging everything , you don't need to differenciate between targets ...... but if you are in a park and you need to hear a Sliver coin that is right next to an old rusty nail and the nail is masking it , you just walked right past a nice Silver coin !!..... Jim
Sounds VERY familiar !!!....... Sounds to me like EXACTLY what Minelab did when they revamped the expanded the scale on the Explorers , and then changed the entire VDI scale on the E Trac .... The E Trac has it's OWN scale ....It does NOT even share the same scale as the older Explorers .....THIS is why it's foolish to even compare the E Trac to older Explorers , or the Sovereign ...... I continue to speak of what goes on in the background and the EVOLVEMENT of the E Trac , but I continue to hear about how good the Iron Mask on the Sovereign works , and how many people have said that it's better and deeper than the E Trac ..... The expanded scale is the reason that the E Trac can differenciate between coins and give them thier own numbers rather than bunch them all into one number like the Sovereign does with the 180 number ..... The expanded scale also allows for better discrimination that make GOOD targets easier to hear ..... Argue all you want ......This is NEW technology that acheives better results for anyone that want's to buy into it ..... If your time is as valuable as mine is , this newer technology is something worth investigating ..... I would not believe it , if I haden't EXPERIENCED It ...... It's an eye opener to say the least ...... GOOD detecting is hard enough and we all have enough to contend with especially with all the various soll types , and mineralizations ...... Granted , there are times when you don't need this technology ....If you are in a field and there are few targets, and you are pretty much digging everything , you don't need to differenciate between targets ...... but if you are in a park and you need to hear a Sliver coin that is right next to an old rusty nail and the nail is masking it , you just walked right past a nice Silver coin !!..... Jim
Critterhunter
New member
EZrider said:
So let me get this straight so I understand where you are coming from...Are you saying that the SE or Etrac has electronics in it that lessons masking of targets? If so then I beg to differ, because unmasking is coil based and not how much software the machine has running in the control box. In order for target A to be seen when it's in the hole with target B, the coil HAS to be able to see target A. No amount of electronics in the box can change that. It isn't going to morph the coil's field, make it go around corners, or be able to see Target A if Target B prevents the coil's field from touching it. There is nothing in the box or the laws of physics that can change that, just like a flash light can't be made to go around corners.
So then if we at least (?) agree on that premise it then comes down to other factors. Recovery speed, namely, is what most people consider to be responsible for unmasking ability. It doesn't mean a thing in those terms, other than being able to swing the coil faster and still see the two targets at least to a certain point and in some respect. So long as you swing the coil at the proper speed and investigate targets with the coil properly then recovery speed has no factor in the results. So long as I can lay a piece of trash and a coin side by side touching each other and still be able to see the coin with proper coil use and speed (either going slow, or doing short/fast wiggles) then it doesn't get any better than that. I inspect every target I come across in this fashion, or at least the deeper ones to either try to find a coin signal mixed in there or derive a true target ID/audio out of a deep fringe target that might otherwise at first only sound off as junk.
I'll say it once again- I attribute much of the perceived separation/unmasking ability of the SE or Etrac to the coil and not the machine's electronics over prior Explorer models. Think of it this way, if the coil didn't matter then why bother to design and manufacture a new one when they had billions of standard 10" coils laying around? I believe they went to the 11" Pro Coil to both improve depth slightly, improve sensitivity to tiny targets better, and most importantly to increase it's ability to see between two targets side by side. That's were most if not all of the improved performance of those two machines lies IMO. Still yet, most say the 12x10 is one up on the Pro Coil in terms of depth and separation on the FBS line. Strap a 12x10 on a Sovereign and it will feel faster, crisper, more sharp at target separation, and so on. That sounds strangely familiar to me to what is said about the SE or Etrac over prior Explorer models.
One other thing, if depth isn't everything these days then that's easy to correct. While the 12x10 is excellent in seperation just like the Pro Coil, I doubt anybody would believe that the Pro Coil is going to out do a 5 or 8" coil in terms of unmasking ability. For that reason, it's just as easy to throw a small coil on the Sovereign for when you want that. As good as the Pro Coil is, it's not going to do better than a Sovereign running a smaller coil when max seperation is the desired goal for the day.