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Easy Counter Balance

autopilot42

Well-known member
I found when hunting for a longer period of time the slight nose heavy nox made my hand sore. I want to buy one of Steve's setups but that will have to be my X-mas present. Here is my temp setup and it feels great. I was able to extend the coil much farther out so it was not right in front of my feet. I used 4 d cell batteries, each way just under 5 oz. but the perceived weight is amazing because of the balance even though I added over a pound to the setup. I guess you could use 2 if you wanted. Just thought I would share. The top two are hot glued and the bottom two are tie wrapped.

Take care

Bob
 
That's a nice setup. I agree balance is as important as weight. I made a water bottle holder as counter weight out of duct tape. (My son once said if you can make a duct ape wallet you can make anything out of the stuff. I also am getting Steve's carbon fibre rod.
 
This seems counter productive, the Equinox was made to be a light machine then you put more weight on it to counter balance it, doesn't make a lot of sense. Some of the problem is that the shaft is not adjusted properly, you shouldn't have the coil way out in front of you, your arm should be relaxed so that when you swing there is little resistance and you should't be straining to hold it up. I know you want the coil out in front of you be not so far as it becomes heavy.
 
Yes you are correct, Steve talked to me about the balance and asked me to try a mocked up counter weight and to my surprise, it made a huge difference (to me). Any counter weight can be customized or eliminated for each user. I did not believe it until I tried it. It actually let me extend the coil more. But that is just me. Cheers!
 
autopilot42 --

I think you did a terrific job there, rigging up a counterbalance system for your Equinox. With 20 oz. of counterweight, I would have expected exactly what you described -- a much-improved feel, when swinging the machine. Nice job!

Digger --

I understand your objection. There's no doubt it's a bit counter-intuitive. But I can tell you that despite the counter-intuitiveness, counterbalancing DOES make a difference -- a HUGE difference, for some.

Here's why. There are two things to consider, when discussing weight. TOTAL, or ABSOLUTE weight, and BALANCE. As this relates to the Equinox, both of these two issues are quite pertinent. First, you have to haul around a roughly 3-pound machine. That requires a certain amount of strength/musculature, to simply lug those few pounds of weight around. Fortunately, MOST of us are capable of that, even if we are not particularly athletic or strong. THEN, secondly, there is the BALANCE issue. When something is imbalanced, it ALSO requires a certain amount of strength/musculature, to "balance out" the imbalance that exists. And often, the muscle groups being used to "carry" the "absolute weight," are DIFFERENT than the muscle groups which are dealing with the "imbalance" of a given item.

Consider a 6-foot 2x4 piece of lumber. This board will weigh about 8 pounds. Likewise, consider a gallon of milk. It also weighs about 8 pounds.

If you were to carry the gallon of milk, you'd grab it by the handle, and pick it up. Most of us are capable of carrying this gallon of milk a reasonably long distance, without too much struggle.

NOW, consider the 2x4. If I told you to pick it up, how would you do so? You would, in most cases, instinctively seek the "middle" of the board, and lift if that way -- and then carry it flat -- parallel to the ground. Why would you grab it instinctively at the middle of the board? Because that's the BALANCE point -- and it is INFINITELY easier to lift a board "at the middle," where it is BALANCED, than it is to lift it from one end. The reason has to do with levers, and fulcrums, and a bunch of physics that some of us have never learned, and most of the rest of us have forgotten, since high-school physics class.

The bottom line, though, is it is relatively easy to carry that 2x4 board IF you are carrying it from the middle, because it is BALANCED. And when it is balanced, you only need to be able to carry the absolute weight of the board -- the 8 pounds. BUT, if you grabbed the board at the very end, and tried to carry it (horizontally, parallel to the ground), you'd find it QUITE difficult. While the board still weighs the same 8 pounds, you would struggle to walk along, holding the board flat, if holding it at the end. Instead, you'd naturally slide your hands forward to the middle of the board, find the "balance point," and then you'd have little trouble carrying the 8-pound board. It would then be the same, essentially, as carrying the 8-pound gallon of milk.

Now, let's say I handed you a different 2x4 board, but this one weighed a couple of pounds more -- it was more "green" (had more moisture content) than the other one. So say this one weighs 10 pounds, not 8 pounds. Would you struggle to carry this board, if you carried it from the middle, at the balance point? No, you would likely not experience all that much more difficulty carrying the 10 pound board, versus the 8 pound board, AS LONG AS you were carrying it so that it was BALANCED. Certainly, whatever "extra" effort you'd feel, having to carry the extra two pounds, would be NOTHING LIKE the amount of difficulty you'd have carrying the board from near one of the ends, where it was imbalanced.

Hopefully, this illustrates that the issue with the Equinox is two-fold. One, the machine is "light," in terms of overall weight. And so yes, if you take the three-pound machine, add a pound to it, and make it a 4 -pound machine, it will be slightly heavier, obviously, from an absolute weight sense. But from a simple "absolute weight" perspective, it's not much harder to carry a 3-pound object than a 4-pound object. What is more to the point here, with adding the extra pound or so to the Equinox, is that if you add that extra pound in a way that BALANCES the machine, THEN -- the amount of effort you are having to exert, with your hand/wrist/arm muscles, to "counteract" the imbalance of the machine, will be MUCH reduced. It will feel EASIER to swing, DESPITE being a bit "heavier" in an absolute sense. It will FEEL lighter. It's like my lumber analogy -- balancing the machine is essentially the same thing as grabbing a board and lifting it from the MIDDLE, versus from one end.

For me, the fatigue I feel with the Equinox, when swinging a big coil, is in my wrist. The reason? The nose-heavy Equinox's coil wants to rest on the ground, due to gravity, but I need to keep that coil floating ABOVE the ground, as I sweep. And so, my hand and wrist are having to exert UPWARD force, to counteract the DOWNWARD force exerted by gravity on the coil. And the small muscles in my hand/wrist experience fatigue, after awhile, trying to keep the coil "floating." The ABSOLUTE weight of the machine is NO problem for me, it's the imbalance that causes the issue -- i.e. me having to use my wrist muscles to try to fight/counteract the downward force gravity acting at the coil end of the shaft (the shaft acting as a long "lever" which means that gravity is using "leverage" against me).

For most all of my customers, adding a pound of weight to the machine causes little if any issue, SINCE that pound of weight is being added in such a way that it balances the machine. Again, it makes it similar to "holding a board from the middle," as opposed to from the end.

Minelab was entirely focused on ABSOLUTE weight, when building the Equinox, but at the complete expense of addressing BALANCE. In other words, balance was "sacrificed," in the name of advertising; after all, Minelab could not have advertised how "light" the Equinox was, compared to the competition, had they added a pound or two to achieve "balance" (even though a "balanced" machine would be much easier and more pleasant to use, for a majority of EQX users).

I know this is long-winded; what I can say is that there are many "former" skeptics of the concept, who are now using counterweighting, and have found drastic improvement in the comfort and "swingability" of the machine.

Despite the counter-intuitiveness, there is solid science/physics underlying this whole discussion. And those who have experienced it, can vouch for the fact that a balanced machine -- though being a bit heavier in "absolute" weight, is nonetheless much easier to swing.

Thanks!

Steve
 
I have Steve’s carbon fiber shaft with the counter weight. It come with two small ziplock bags with shot in them and I only use one and my detecting time increases by hours.
Autopilot42 that will work and is a good idea. But you could go to half the weight by putting the weight all the way at the back of the shaft.. Steve’s is a really nice system because it is about a 4 inch counter weight that nicely screws into the back of his carbon fiber shaft with a cap that unscrews so you can add the amount of weight needed. When I’m using the 6 inch I unscrew the weight completely. In the water I also don’t use the counter weight with the 11 inch because the coil gets two buoyant. But on land I use one bag inside the screw on counter with the 11 inch and if I had the 15 inch I’d probably be using two bags.
Digger 45 I thought the same as you but if you detect for 8 hours like I do it dose make a difference. I can extend the shaft longer for a much wider shaft.
And yes it dose weigh more but the balancing thing dose make a difference and I have been detecting for 45 years so I’m not new to the sport. If you swing the 11 inch coil like I do for 8 hrs with no break without the counter weight , I couldn’t do that and I’m pushing 71.
Getting the counterweight as far back as possible really helps and needs less shot inside it.
I’m always gonna go for a couple hours and it ends up 6 - 8 hrs.
Try that with no counterweight.
Your Friend; Doug
 
Few years back I hurt my elbow at a time when I was spending a lot of time detecting dirt with a Cibola. Light machine, but the little bit of torque it put on my hurt elbow just did not work. I built a counter balance that added about 1/2 pound to the total weight of the detector with coil and rod, but I could swing it all day with the bad elbow. Balancing, proper angle on the grip, proper rod length for swing and proper placement of arm rest all can make huge differences in the detecting experience.

Good discussion going on here and I am glad to see some folks are working to provide solutions and share results.
 
I agree and that’s wha I’ve been trying to explain. It dose make a difference. And the farther back the better and doing the you need less weight.

Doug
 
When I ordered my shaft from Steve, I ordered a 5 1/2” counterweight. It came with 1 eight oz. bag and 2 four oz. bags. I ended up using just the eight oz. bag for a total counterweight of 12 oz. In order to keep the single bag from sliding down to the front, I cut a 3 inch price of foam and put it inside the counterweight, then put in the bag of weight. So now it stays in the very back .
 
Hears some info. On Steve’s counterweight.
I just weighed my counterweight.
When empty with no shot bag inside. 5.03 oz.
Shot bag (1) 6.97 oz.
And total weight is 12 oz with one bag inside.
Now when you are adding 12oz all the way back of the shaft it dose really make a difference. On the wrist , arm and elbow. And with that much weight and adjustment the telescoping shaft it dose really make a difference.

Doug
 
JEF said:
When I ordered my shaft from Steve, I ordered a 5 1/2” counterweight. It came with 1 eight oz. bag and 2 four oz. bags. I ended up using just the eight oz. bag for a total counterweight of 12 oz. In order to keep the single bag from sliding down to the front, I cut a 3 inch price of foam and put it inside the counterweight, then put in the bag of weight. So now it stays in the very back .
Good idea I didn’t think about the foam and I’ll be doing that.
Thanks for the tip.
 
Jeff , foam just went in , Thanks

Doug
 
Digger 45 said:
This seems counter productive, the Equinox was made to be a light machine then you put more weight on it to counter balance it, doesn't make a lot of sense. Some of the problem is that the shaft is not adjusted properly, you shouldn't have the coil way out in front of you, your arm should be relaxed so that when you swing there is little resistance and you should't be straining to hold it up. I know you want the coil out in front of you be not so far as it becomes heavy.

When I beach hunt I am covering vast amounts of territory. Keeping the coil close to me is counter productive to covering that territory. Using the 15 inch coil for coverage is no way as beneficial as lengthening the swing. A counter weight allows me to use the Equinox without pain to my swinging arm. It allows me to cover more ground with each swing and to hunt longer because I am pain free.

The benefits of A counter weight became clear to me using the Excal years ago by simply mounting the detector behind the cuff.

Steve's shaft is a solution to pain for me. My arm hurt for days after a three day vacation slash beach hunt. In fact I was close to missing work because of it. Asking me then if I would give a 150.00 to make my pain go away considering work, pain killers, lack of sleep, and probably giving up on the Equinox I would gladly pay the money. To top it all off Steve worked with me on the customizing and the shaft itself is a beautiful work of art.

One more thing.....Just moving to a third party shaft was not the answer. I tried another straight shaft from a well known company, and it offered nothing as far as balance.

Ergonomics is essential.
 
Ok i see your point but when you talk about a 2x4 lets say 4 ft long if you are holding it out in front of you and holding by the end then is see that counter balance is needed but if you reduce the angle of the shaft so it is closer to your feet it will seem less heavy and a counter balance is not needed. I see so many with the coils way out in front of them maybe three or four feet in front, this puts a lot of strain on the arm and elbow. I also have been detecting for some 35 years and have used many detectors. Just saying give it a try shorten up the shaft and let it hang more normally and see it this helps.
 
For speaking for me only . The counterbalance works so well on land but in the water I have to remove it because I have a hard tim keeping the coil close to the bottom. On land I helps be from detecting close to my feet and you cover so much less area. Let’s face it the Knox feels good right out of the box but with the counter weight it just makes it so much better. You can extend the shaft to have a much smoother and wider path. It helps on the wrist and elbow. It extends the time you time you can detect. A lot of this goes with being able to tune and change the balance of the detector. I change my balance by what coil and what and where I am detecting. When I’m detecting I only have two fingers under the control head when it’s balanced to the way I want it. I have Steve’s carbon fiber shaft and it is totally easily adjustable without those pins to push in. And you get rid of the three shaft system that Minelab has and only have a two shaft system so the wobble is gone. The clamp is so much better rather than messing with the twist lock and pin system. I have two lower shafts that stays on my coils so changing coils is fast and easy and a whole lot better on the cables, and no messing with the coil bolt.
Since I went to Steve’s system my Detecting time has more than doubled and I have no pain. All this is a no brainer.
Your Friend; Doug
 
First of all, thank you Donut and goodmore for your very kind words! I am so glad that I was able to play a part in helping to allow you to detect longer/more comfortably, with less fatigue/pain. That's the best feedback I could ever receive!

Digger 45 --

Absolutely you are correct. The farther out you extend your lower rod (i.e. the farther ahead of your feet you have your coil), the more counterbalancing is needed. Meanwhile, just as you said, if you keep your lower rod shorter, and thus your shaft more vertical, you won't need as much counterweighting. That is absolutely true. You understood my analogies perfectly, and your point is spot on.

However, I will note that the only way to ENTIRELY eliminate imbalance, is by having the shaft PERFECTLY vertical (perpendicular to the ground), which is of course impossible. Even running a very short lower rod (and thus short overall shaft length), there is STILL imbalance/nose-heaviness that needs to be dealt with (albeit LESS imbalance, with a short shaft vs. a long shaft).

In my case, I learned the hard way -- after years of swinging a heavy Minelab Explorer -- to keep a short lower rod, and thus a short overall shaft length, and hunt with the coil close to my feet. As a result of that experience with the Explorer, when I run the Equinox, there is only about 16" of lower rod extending from the upper shaft. Even though I'm 6' 2" tall, I run only a 53" total shaft length -- pretty short for someone of my height. But, even so, with the 12" x 15" coil attached, my wrist is STILL definitely "feeling it" after a few hours of hunting. But, as others have noted, running with proper counterweighting solves that issue for me; instead of my wrist having to counteract the weight of the coil, the counterweight does that job for me -- IT counteracts the weight of the coil, which is the whole point. Then, the only thing I have to do is handle to "overall" weight of the machine...in other words, I've turned the scenario into one analogous to that "carrying a piece of lumber from the middle" analogy. While my machine weighs a pound or so heavier, with the counterweight, it's MUCH easier to deal with the extra pound of weight while NOT fighting the nose-heaviness, than it would be to remove that pound of weight, and fight the big coil with my wrist!

Steve
 
I see your point and you are right, what i also see it that the hand hold handle seems very uncomfortable at times especially after i have used another detector, ( Deus) it just feels wrong for some reason. Anyone else have this feeling or is it just me? Don't get me wrong the Nox is a great detector
 
Digger 45 said:
I see your point and you are right, what i also see it that the hand hold handle seems very uncomfortable at times especially after i have used another detector, ( Deus) it just feels wrong for some reason. Anyone else have this feeling or is it just me? Don't get me wrong the Nox is a great detector
. I agree on the post and think the angle is wrong or something, I never had that problem with my Xterra 70. I did notice the grip height is to short because after a life’s hours my index finger at the knuckle is rubbing on the bottom of the control head and is is a little sore the next day.i have big hands but I never had this problem with my Exterra 70: and that unit is heavier.
No blister yet but that may happen in the future, at times I actually placer two fingers below the shaft and swing that way to relieve my finger from rubbing.
I really kind my NOX though .

Doug
 
I use a 1in ball Ram mount 3in long with a 12oz fishing weight attached on my 600, it is fast to put on or take off and very secure, balances the 11in coil perfectly.
 
voyager -- yep, you are correct. Indeed, 12 oz. is just about the weight you need, to achieve "perfect" balance on the 11" coil (depending upon your height and shaft extension length).

Digger -- I hear you, on the handle angle. Sometimes though, I wonder if it is simply what you are used to. In other words, I think maybe your hand/wrist muscles get used to a certain angle, on a certain machine's handle, such that switching to a different machine, with a slightly different handle angle, can sometimes be enough to cause issues.

Here's why I bring that up...I hunted an Explorer for years, as I mentioned. When Minelab came out with the E-Trac, though, they slightly changed the handle angle on that machine, versus the Explorer (it was supposed to be an ergonomic "improvement" as I recall). Well, a few years ago I was headed for a week at the beach in Destin, and was looking forward to my first attempt at beach hunting. However, right before we were to leave, my Explorer died, and so at the last minute, I borrowed a buddy's E-Trac for the trip. And let me tell you what, I could sure feel it, in the wrist! I was NOT expecting that, since the angle of the handle was supposed to be an "improvement." And it probably WAS, for someone who hadn't been so used to an Explorer. Point being, at least for me, I concluded that it was the CHANGE in handle angle, that was causing me the issues, as opposed to the handle angle being "wrong," per se...

Just my two cents, on "handle angle." One thing about it, though, is that something which doesn't affect one person, can really bother another...

Steve
 
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