Excalibur is deeper with pin point and I proved it today

[Steve from Ohio]

I was out on Manatee beach today at low tide 3/15/10 7:45 am. Conditions were OK with quite a few bigger waves. Lots of shells and jellyfish on the beach.

I started out in the wet sand and was using pin point. I picked up a few clads and then hit a nice 14K 16 small diamond woman's wedding band. Sorry, I don't have a camera right now here in Florida so I can't show it. Took it to a few pawn shops and was offered $100 to $175. Probably worth $350-$400.

When I hit the ring, I went right away to discriminate. Nothing. Not even a peep. I marked the spot and tried several adjustments to the Excalibur II in discriminate. I'm not a newbee with the Excalibur and I tried every trick I knew to get it to see it in discriminate. I could not pick up that ring until I dug down about 6 inches.Then it registered in discriminate. That ring was down around 15 inches. Pin point had just a small waver in the threshold that I just had to dig. Glad I did!

I know this has been debated for ever and ever but it has been my experience with the older Excalibur 800 and now the Excalibur II 1000 that pin point is the only way to go for about 90% of beach detecting at least for me.

Another advantage of using pin point is that you do not have to listen to all the different tones until you want to. I found it much easier to detect for a longer time because I was not trying to decipher the different sounds. I just did not get mentally tired as I did when using discriminate full time. I still use sounds in discriminate but only to see if it is iron. The iron null buzz can get pretty tiring pretty quickly.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Discriminate is for those who do not want to dig up gold rings and chains. If you disagree, please let me know where you hunt so I can clean up!

 

[Critterhunter]

When I did my beach test yesterday on PP, All Metal Fixed, and discriminate I did a few things: Made sure I swept around in All Metal track for a few minutes to insure the machine is adjusted right, then I set it to fixed and checked the target. I wanted to make sure I did this near that target so I knew ground balance was set for that particular degree of moisture/ground signal. I then checked it in PP. Once I switched to discriminate I then swept around for a few minutes before checking the target to give the machine time to "settle" with it's BBS technology to the ground. Neither would produce a signal on some of these targets while discrimination got them all. What I'm asking you is this- When you are switching back to discriminate are you sweeping around for a while to give the machine time to learn to ignore the ground minerals properly? I've noticed when the GT is first fired up it can produce erratic signals on targets until the coil has time to read the ground with several sweeps. It's very apparent when you turn the machine on first and don't have the coil laying on the ground.

It may in fact be that PP on some Excaliburs is hotter than discriminate, at least in certain ground minerals, but I still don't see how that would be possible without a ground balance. In fact, I was shocked to see PP was deeper on some targets than All Metal Fixed, but again PP was never deeper than discriminate on my GT. I still want to test this more at certain sites to see if discrimination still beats them both. Maybe it's just that people are not adjusting their threshold properly in discriminate and so they don't notice the threshold change on real deep targets, where as PP has a louder and more pronounced sound off?

 

[Critterhunter]

Remember, when conducting these tests it's very important to balance the machine in All Metal and then compare to discrimination, as well as give discrimination time to get used to the ground conditions before comparing that to it or PP. I realize the Excalibur doesn't have an All Metal mode but it's useful to note for Sovereign tests as well.

 

[excalme]

Well Steve, pin point may be deepest on YOUR machine but certainly not on mine.
I have tested over and over signals and I always got a better signal in discrim (on low). In fact searching in pinpoint on my Excalibur the signals were weak in pinpoint. This was on the Atlantic coast side Florida. I dont think I ever got a better sigal in pinpoint.
My Excal I bought in 99.
Anyway if I wanted to spend all day searching in all metal I would have saved money and bought a good pulse machine.

 

[hershey1]

Must just be a difference in machines. Mine works like Steve's, sometimes I've removed several inchs of sand with my feet before I could hear anything in disc. Whatever works we are all after the same thing. HH

 

[Critterhunter]

Yea, the only way to tell is to switch back and fourth while hunting at a new site and see what it's doing for you. I'm fairly confident my GT is deepest in discrimination but I'll check this in the field more to see.

 

[Neil]

Remember, when conducting these tests it's very important to balance the machine in All Metal and then compare to discrimination, as well as give discrimination time to get used to the ground conditions before comparing that to it or PP. I realize the Excalibur doesn't have an All Metal mode but it's useful to note for Sovereign tests as well.

you might want to take this up with minelab, they call their pinpoint mode an all metal mode.

 

[Steve from Ohio]

Well Steve, pin point may be deepest on YOUR machine but certainly not on mine.
I have tested over and over signals and I always got a better signal in discrim (on low). In fact searching in pinpoint on my Excalibur the signals were weak in pinpoint. This was on the Atlantic coast side Florida. I dont think I ever got a better sigal in pinpoint.
My Excal I bought in 99.
Anyway if I wanted to spend all day searching in all metal I would have saved money and bought a good pulse machine.

I did say that "For Me" it works better.

I wonder why there is so many people who feel one way and so many that feel the other? Could it be that certain Excaliburs are built with the ability to pin point better than others? Circuitry? I'm not sure but this argument has been going on since the Excalibur was released so many years ago.

As far as buying a PI machine, it is sure nice to be able to find the deep stuff with the Excalibur in all metal and then be able to figure out with discriminate when digging to see if it is worth digging any further.

I often go to the east coast at the treasure cost to hunt and pin point is my favorite there also.

I guess it comes down to what you prefer. I do know this, on my machines at least, pin point makes finding much easier and having discrimination allows me to figure out if it is worth digging when it comes into discrimination range. And I don't have to deal with the different sounds. Just a waver in the threshold is all I'm interested in.

I sure would like to see a shoot out of discrimination guys VS the pin point guys.

" Discrimination is for those who don't want to dig gold rings and chains."

 

[excalme]

Yes, the reason I keep posting replies on this subject is that I was suprised just how much better my Excal performed in discrim compared to pinpoint.
Even if the signal depths were similar the response in discrim is always the clearer of the two modes. - On my machine. I'm happy with that too because thats what I wanted anyway. To knock out iron. Its a bonus, I get good or better depth with discrim!!

 

[Critterhunter]

Remember, when conducting these tests it's very important to balance the machine in All Metal and then compare to discrimination, as well as give discrimination time to get used to the ground conditions before comparing that to it or PP. I realize the Excalibur doesn't have an All Metal mode but it's useful to note for Sovereign tests as well.

you might want to take this up with minelab, they call their pinpoint mode an all metal mode.

Yes, it is...but Minelab also says PinPoint is an All Metal mode with ground balance disabled. Read other thread for an explaination of what might be going on here. It might very well "adjust" automaticly when switched to PP but I bet it's a very HOT setting that allows you to hear deep targets, and it probably doesn't adjust as it's used, only each time it's switched to PP. Pure speculation so I could be wrong.

Then again, maybe we are chopping away at the wrong tree here. Maybe PP is using some form of older "all metal" detector technology. Those modes are a little out of my knowledge base but machines like the 6000 Pro XL still offer a few of them along with older machines. Some of these are "All Metal" modes that have different properties than your typical modern day All Metal. I think some where non-motion All Metal, and some were All Metal without a ground balance. Somebody with more knowledge on that can take it from here. It's something work looking into anyway. Like I said, I still can't figure out why PP was deeper than All Metal Fixed but need to conduct more tests to see if this is even true. Might have been a wrong ground balance or at least not hot enough.

 

[crazyman]

Way to many different variables in this discussion.. Things that effect the different outcomes seen here are different ground conditions such as mineralization, light , moderate, bad, sand versus dirt, salt water versus fresh water. Comparing Excalibur pinpoint versus Gt pinpoint and GT all metal which are different as well. On most machines all metal will go deeper in mineralized soil and or salt water beaches which have varying amounts of black sand. Neil made an interesting observation that the Sovereign's/Excalibur's pinpoint mode may have the same filtering as the discrimination mode and I lean towards this myself. If not it at least has a self adjusting threshold similar to the S.A. T. (self adjusting threshold) mode on some Whites detectors. Next low tide I'm going to test my new GT using the all metal mode against the pinpoint mode and then both against discrimination mode on a beach that has a fair amount of black sand.

 

[Critterhunter]

It for sure has a ratcheting or SAT threshold

 

[OldBeechnut]

crazyman

When we discuss this topic.........Maybe we should start the post off with the make of the machine, your settings and your locations so we can map where one is Hotter then the other. Then I think we will see a pattern.............
Location..Ocean City, Maryland.........Lowtide to Hightide line {Wet Sand, Almost lowtide}
Winter 2009..water temp., 36 degrees?
Minelab Excalibur 2004, 8 inch coil, Pelitor Headphones {yellow originally}, Doc's Treasure Screamer Amp {on 1/2}
Settings..Discrimination 1
Sensitivity..2 o'clock
Volume..full {targets volume}
Threshold..just audible
Mode...pinpoint, then switching to disc to check targets
Ocean City Maryland Targets were this day, deeper in AM/PP Mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FudDaUYrnw

 

[smkunder]

Wow, great video, that helped me to understand the PP mode more than all the reading I have done. this gets so confusing to the newbie beach hunter. I thank you for this type of help.

Steve K

 

[JOHNMARKHAM]

my input here is this..
all found with disc mode..........14k 3 diamonds...low sweet growl of gold...
your ring might have been on its side or at an angle??mine was about 12inches..
pin point mode is deeper but youll dig more junk....imho..
hh
john

 

[Neil]

Remember, when conducting these tests it's very important to balance the machine in All Metal and then compare to discrimination, as well as give discrimination time to get used to the ground conditions before comparing that to it or PP. I realize the Excalibur doesn't have an All Metal mode but it's useful to note for Sovereign tests as well.

you might want to take this up with minelab, they call their pinpoint mode an all metal mode.

Yes, it is...but Minelab also says PinPoint is an All Metal mode with ground balance disabled. Read other thread for an explaination of what might be going on here. It might very well "adjust" automaticly when switched to PP but I bet it's a very HOT setting that allows you to hear deep targets, and it probably doesn't adjust as it's used, only each time it's switched to PP. Pure speculation so I could be wrong.

Then again, maybe we are chopping away at the wrong tree here. Maybe PP is using some form of older "all metal" detector technology. Those modes are a little out of my knowledge base but machines like the 6000 Pro XL still offer a few of them along with older machines. Some of these are "All Metal" modes that have different properties than your typical modern day All Metal. I think some where non-motion All Metal, and some were All Metal without a ground balance. Somebody with more knowledge on that can take it from here. It's something work looking into anyway. Like I said, I still can't figure out why PP was deeper than All Metal Fixed but need to conduct more tests to see if this is even true. Might have been a wrong ground balance or at least not hot enough.

your stuck on this ground balance issue, get past it and you can see what people are telling you. just claiming it doesnt adjust when you clearly havent even used it to hunt is kinda strange isnt it?

 

[Critterhunter]

But I have used PP on an Excalibur, I've just never had the "strange" notion that it might ever even have a chance to go deeper than BBS. I'm not claiming it does or doesn't adjust one way or the other, as I've thrown out both ideas for consideration. One would be that it might somehow take a rough ground reading and then adjust it's self much hotter to insure proper pinpointing ability, or the other would be that it's using some form of throw back non-motion all metal mode. Some of these modes didn't have the ability to ground balance, and that's why they were abandoned as detector technology advanced (they were very erratic...Remind you of what it says in the Minelab manual?). Don't confuse the PP's VCO or whatever forum of target narrowing it's doing with any of these as these techniques at pinpointing a target can be laid on top of pretty much any all metal mode. Two different birds. Let's share some ideas here and not take a defensive tact about it. After all, we are all only seeking answers and that shouldn't be considered strange in the least bit.

Speaking of throw backs, I had a thought about the GT versus older model depth controversy. As an added example, I've owned several QXTs over the years including two or three QXT Pros. Same machine. Same software. Whites didn't even claim anything was different, even stating it was just a name change. However, I found that every QXT Pro I owned would allow me to set the sensitivity about two digits higher than I could with the "same" plain QXT. After some further digging since Whites was no help, I came across some information that indicated that the newer components being used in the QXT Pro had less circuit noise, allowing slightly higher sensitivity levels and thus a bit more depth. Even if the GT is the same in all respects to the Elite that alone can make a difference.

 

[crazyman]

Curiosity has the best of me now. I never use pinpoint/all metal with the Sovereign to pinpoint targets. I always pinpoint in disc.mode. I'm going to run down to a park nearby with both the Elite and GT and compare deep targets on each machine in both modes. It's not a real old park, 1930's to present but the coins run deep here and there is a fair amount of mineralization.

 

[John(Tx)]

that just because the audio in Disc is more profound than the audio on PP that it is actually going deeper. I think PP is deeper, I have gotten very weak signals in PP that I could not hear in Disc but I have also gotten weak signals in PP that were actally more profound in Disc, but maybe it's just the audio on Disc, that doesn't mean that Disc is going deeper. Hope that made sense, I know it works for me. Good hunting to all. John

 

[Critterhunter]

I think it might have something to do with PP being a form of All Metal while discrimination is knocking out iron targets. I checked yesterday a few targets with the GT that I could hear in pinpoint but would null in discriminate. Not paying close attention to the threshold might make some think that discrimination isn't picking anything up when in fact it's nulling out, while PP is making a sound off to the target. These items were ferous in content. On the other hand, it might very well be that a low conductivity target (such as a small gold ring) at depth my be blending in enough with the iron content in the ground so as to be pulled even further down the scale into the iron zone. Disc might ignore it while PP still sounds off to this "iron" looking target. In those very specific situations at least (low conductivity/high iron in the ground) PP may in fact be going deeper in a sense, but I'd wager that on a Sovereign All Metal should go as deep if not deeper than PP provided the ground balance is set up properly (slightly hot).

That's only one working theory of mine. I may start digging into some of the old non-motion disc and all metal detection modes that many detectors used to use to see if any of their traits apply well to what the Excalibur's PP is doing, which appears to be different (non-motion) than the Sovereign's VCO style (or something similar) PP which does require motion to work.

I'll try to get the Excalibur out today for a few comparisons to the GT on deep "fringe" targets that appear in discrimination or PP and see which is doing what in the various modes.