MattyTrac...............thoughts

[MattR]

Hello guys. ("Good evening to Chris in Ohio")

Just read your lead post.

I understand the feelings and the underlying reasons of those Minelab enthusiasts who are perplexed over the seemingly incongruous Fe 12 factor, imposed on the E-trac.

Jim has very lucidly explained his misgivings and concern as to why the designers should change without an explanation, the excellent, full matrix of discrimination control, that was the 'Jewel' of previous Explorer models.

He is not alone in this concern; I too am more than curious.

For my part, my initial dismay is now tempered with the thought that, if it's so obvious a factor, why is it designed so?

With due respect to Andy, why should he or anyone involved in testing the prototypes, now find it plausible to 'write a book' to simply reveal the reasons?

Indeed, if he was party to the field testing feed back to the designers who, based on those field tests, saw some advantage in creating the Fe12, then in loyalty to his readers, and more-so to the mass of Minelab faithful followers, tell us the simple logic behind the affair.

To me, the whole outcome has created an unnecessary glitch, in what has otherwise been a most commendable and forthcoming dispensation of product knowledge and support.

So, apart from that one 'error', I unreservedly think, that the E-trac is going to prove to be a fabulous detector. Time will tell.

*******************

So after that little speech, I will now explain why my thoughts and attitudes have been 'tempered-down'.

Initial tests, (constrained by non-stop rain,) are invoking my excitement and anticipation for the Autumn days ahead, when I can hit those fields.

Being stuck indoors allowed me to look inquisitively at old target data, mostly gathered from these forums, of US coinage.

I may be wrong, but the figures suggest that this Fe 12 thing, may be a consequence of US coin hunter

 

[jbow]

n/t

 

[Andy Sabisch]

I would like to ask readers of this post to click on the following link and read a post I made in response to the statements being made about the upcoming book on the Explorer & E-Trac . . . . .

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?19,802437,802757#msg-802757

If anyone has any comments, PM me and I will respond as soon as I can

Andy Sabisch

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

I've read the manual a few times, and am basically pretty underwhelmed. This is definitely an explorer, but with a faster processor and some new software. Not to say it won't be a great machine. But...... I remember a similar hoopla for the XSII and the SE.

And I haven't bought one or am planning to until I read much more here, so keep on posting.

The new manual made clear somethings we've suspected and debated for years. One is auto/manual sensitivity, that in good ground auto will run higher than in manual and in bad lower. Something many of us have noticed. I'm really happy that they are showing where the explorer thinks it should be sensitivity wise. Has anyone used it in nail filled ground and seen where the suggested sensitivity level goes? My gut is that it will detune, that it can't tell the difference between lots of nails and highly mineralized soil. Could be wrong.

I hope the FE12 thing is not what it appears to be. I bought a F75 because it was supposed to be a much quicker machine. It is definitely faster than my Explorer XS, but I'm not at all convinced that the speed allows me to find more. It can pretty much see what the my XS can see, and visa versa. Just the F-75 only has a single axis of TID, which gives way less info than the explorer as to what is in the ground. Bottom line is that Coil geometry and size seem to be more important than processor speed at finding coins in trash.

The F-75 has several modes for tones, 2F, 3H, 4H, etc. It also has a continuous variable pitch mode to. In the other modes it will take signals that map into one range and give it a high tone, so US nickels will give a good sound like other coins. Sounds like that is what Minelab has done here. The problem with this is the same problem as using tight discrimination patterns. Coins in the ground, next to trash, etc. and etc. will not always give the same signal. Unless they are shallow or completely free of trash the same target may give a widely different ID on each and every sweep. Most of us explorer users have gotten used to listening and watching the numbers/cursor dance and use this data to determine whether to dig. By having the detector determine which tone it should be playing and map all the signals to the same area we lose data.

In fact many of the Fisher users have come to the same conclusion that we Explorer users have. Get rid of most/all discrimination, and with the fisher only use two tones, dig everything that registers above foil. This might work for colonial sites but for park hunting no way. On the F-75 I can see the TID bounce between iron and coin and in between; could be anything, on the explorer I can see if it bounces up or down as it bounces across. I bet Minelab has this feature pretty tightly wrapped up in a patent and that every other detector company will do the same when it expires.

If this is indeed what they have done on the E-trac; map potential US coin hits to the same tone/ID even if their real signature is different; then I suspect they are doing us a real disservice. I know the Explorer manual makes a big deal out of the pattern programming, and have heard that the dealers are told to promote this, and that Andy S. has occasionally chimed in on this forum that we are nuts for hunting in all metal, perhaps led to this development. I would say the majority of us hunt using as little discrimination as possible, and are about 50-50 whether to run ferrous or conductive. And we don't do it because we are too dumb to make patterns, it just that years of experimentation by hundreds of users has led to the same conclusion.

Perhaps this feature will have it's place, but I can't imagine that it would take a huge programming effort to at least give us the option to run like we always have.

Chris

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

But it was kind of strange to mention Andy in my post and find his response. Too many Chris'

I'M not insinuating that any information is being withheld.

I am a little concerned that Minelab is trying way too hard with the pattern programming. If many of us seem to find that a chattering/droning/arcade game on acid is finding us what others are missing, help us out and don't try corral us back to pattern programming.

Chris

 

[Beachcomber]

should be up to us like it was on the Explorer. Not by making the detector less able to show us the difference in target characteristics. As technology progresses target differentiation should become better not worse. For those of us who have hunted with the Explorer for years there was no FE quandary. By lining everything upin a straight line the way they did they made it just like every other TID machine on the market that uses only the conductive range to give you your TID value. Now most non-ferrous targets will read somewhere on the 11,12, or 13 line vertically and between 1 and 50 horizontally. So now you only have like 150 target ID locations whereas if they would have done it the way the Explorer was done but using the new expanded screen we would have had 1750 possible target locations. Which is more than enough for the most discerning Th'er. Still all this is moot since this is the way they chose to design and we are stuck with it. With all the processing power of this new detector I don't know why they couldn't have just left the full ferrous mode in there as an option for those of us who have always hunted in that mode. But the fact is they didn't. So as the old saying goes..."no sense in crying over spilled milk". So we have to learn other ways to hunt to take advantage of what this new detector is capable of. Maybe we'll find better and even more enjoyable ways to hunt with it. Maybe we won't. But we won't know until we tried. I had a chance to hunt with an E-Trac for two hours out on the beach last night and I found it to be an excellent detector. But I haven't decided if it is going to be the right detector for me. It is comfortable and it is fast responding. But there a a few more tests I need to do before I know if the E-trac is for me. Also one really nice thing that you can do with the E-trac that you can NOT do with an Explorer. You can hunt while wearing polaroid sunglasses and still see the display. And not only see the display but see it without any glare. I don't know how many of you have tired but if you wear polaroid sunglasses with the Explorer all you see is a dark screen. With the Etrac it was nice and clear. Possibly the dark screen when wearing polaroid sunglasses (which I always do around the water) is the reason I had come to depend on the Audio ID in Ferrous Mode with the Explorer. Anyway this is just another benefit of the new display screen on the E-trac. JMHO

HH

Beachcomber

 

[digitrich]

n/t

 

[jimpugh]

Is maybe this unit being deadly..... with the brother in law setting...... as some call them that have never hunted with them.....much less find something with it......you could take the old explorers and stand in the same spot all day and find a few things.......But now you will have armies of people with the clean it up quick DEEP machines.... so it's gone the way of the dinosaurs.....first ones that master these units will reap the most rewards........ YEA THESE E-tracs are terrible

Happy Trails
Jim Pugh

 

[digitrich]

We are just asking for it to have a multi-tone all metal option for those of us who hunt that way. As for your machine working so good, mine probably is too, I am just in really dry ground, possibly in the wrong settings, I'll figure it out, always do and I appreciate your help with that.

 

[jimpugh]

n/t

 

[mattockman]

Tell me why the E-trac is better than an Explorer....Just make it a 1-whatever kinda list....Ex. 1. lighter 2. Deeper 3.changes memorials to big silver with a single stroke of the wand......ETC......I know it is very new and you fortunate fellas that can afford one have not had much time to use it but I am curious if there is such a list of why it is better...and please leave the USB out of it.

 

[jimpugh]

1 It is deeper

2 it is much quicker

3 has REAL FAST see thru ability in IRON

4 better in black sand and bad ground

5 runs much smoother and sweeter than any explorer I have ever sold or hunted with!

6 Bigger screen easier to read

7 Great control layout with fast on the fly mode switching sensitivity, as well as between 3 separate screens

8The depth meter is faster and more accurate

9 pinpoints much better with a true no motion mode

10 has a sizing pinpoint mode also

11has to separate ground modes neutral and difficult

12 4 stock patterns and 10 custom savable slots for patterns


13 Last but not least it is the latest technology by the WORLD LEADER IN DETECTING INNOVATION ******no new paint job**** REAL NEW Features that work BETTER*** they put their money on the BAR!

So this IS my list today..... ask next week or next year and I will be adding to it ....

Happy Trails
Jim Pugh

 

[digitrich]

I am beginning to wonder how this thing will do in gold bearing areas, I mean I don't know of any other VLF detector that deals with mineralization like this one does.

 

[digitrich]

n/t

 

[Beachcomber]

n/t

 

[JoeinMemphis]

As Polaroid invented the polarized lens.....

 

[Beachcomber]

the younger pups on the Forum brought it to my attention that I used polaroid instead of polarized and that some of the youngsters might not understand what I meant

HH

Beachcomber

 

[king-ghidorah]

should be up to us like it was on the Explorer. Not by making the detector less able to show us the difference in target characteristics. As technology progresses target differentiation should become better not worse. For those of us who have hunted with the Explorer for years there was no FE quandary. By lining everything up in a straight line the way they did they made it just like every other TID machine on the market that uses only the conductive range to give you your TID value. Now most non-ferrous targets will read somewhere on the 11,12, or 13 line vertically and between 1 and 50 horizontally. So now you only have like 150 target ID locations whereas if they would have done it the way the Explorer was done but using the new expanded screen we would have had 1750 possible target locations. Which is more than enough for the most discerning Th'er. Still all this is moot since this is the way they chose to design and we are stuck with it. With all the processing power of this new detector I don't know why they couldn't have just left the full ferrous mode in there as an option for those of us who have always hunted in that mode. But the fact is they didn't. So as the old saying goes..."no sense in crying over spilled milk". So we have to learn other ways to hunt to take advantage of what this new detector is capable of. Maybe we'll find better and even more enjoyable ways to hunt with it. Maybe we won't. But we won't know until we tried. I had a chance to hunt with an E-Trac for two hours out on the beach last night and I found it to be an excellent detector. But I haven't decided if it is going to be the right detector for me. It is comfortable and it is fast responding. But there a a few more tests I need to do before I know if the E-trac is for me. Also one really nice thing that you can do with the E-trac that you can NOT do with an Explorer. You can hunt while wearing Polaroid sunglasses and still see the display. And not only see the display but see it without any glare. I don't know how many of you have tired but if you wear Polaroid sunglasses with the Explorer all you see is a dark screen. With the Etrac it was nice and clear. Possibly the dark screen when wearing Polaroid sunglasses (which I always do around the water) is the reason I had come to depend on the Audio ID in Ferrous Mode with the Explorer. Anyway this is just another benefit of the new display screen on the E-trac. JMHO

HH

Beachcomber

Or maybe it seems faster because they left out FE processing as I recall someone on here mentioning a little while ago? I still have not seen the specs on the old SE processor. Maybe the E-TRAC has a hair faster processor and then they left off FE processing and so it seems much faster. Computing responsiveness on a certain program that you are running has much more pop when you are running it alone but throw in a JAVA app or a ray-tracing program and see what happens to that pop. I also feel that ML should have had an option where each individual user could have reverted to the FULL FE spectrum if he choose so.

Someone on here asked me this in a PM:

PS: are you thinking about trying the new E-trac?

"For one I do not have the money ... period

two, I honestly do not like the fact that the FE readings are skewed but it does have some advantages. I am still in my infancy with the SE . I have learned much here already and regret that I didn't get off my rear end and learn this sooner. The SE does not have a hard learning curve if you get off your fanny and just out in a couple 3-4 hour sessions day after day. Once I did that i really started finding stuff.

I live in Providence,RI and there is a lot of old places around here, my old country hometowns of Hope Valley,Ashaway, Westerly plus the tons of beaches around here as well.. Now that I am looking at things through a MD's eyes there are a lot of places to bang out. I noticed you didn't say a peep about the SE which tells me you have a lot to say about it.

In my opinion the machine matters to a degree but if the guy swinging it is a knucklehead then it ain't worth a diddly. Basically all you are getting with the E-12 (someone jokingly called it this) / E-TRAC is faster recovery speed because of faster processor which they should have done in the first place with the SE. A better feedback on sensitivity. Some smoke and mirror discrimination patterns with a better angled grip for less fatigue and a USB port so people can exchange settings. When I look at it that way it doesn't seem like I should go out and hock out everything I own just to cough up almost $1,500 so I can say I have the E-TRAC! They also are not using a new technology on this MD. It's the same FBS as the SE. What I have learned so far is it comes down to the user and him fortifying himself through research on his machine and practice,practice, practice. There is no magic MD that the user has to do nothing and out pops $5 gold coins into his pocket. Like someone said to someone who asked for advice on hunting an old slavery property and I think it applies here, "Swing like Hell!" and the finds will come. Your a testimony to that."

I still feel that way and more strongly and I will not be buying the E-TRAC model. They should have had a faster processor in the first place with the SE. Anyone who can operate a digital watch could see how slow it responded, much like an elite engineer. Let's look at the ergonomics of the SE. Std. coil should have been centered to begin. Do I need a college degree in engineering to see that? I do not revere the engineering world because when it comes to real life people and integrating their product you might as well be a robot with metal breasts trying to feed your newborn. In any field and I am not saying this has happened to the new model that ML has put out. The first in anything in a commercial product you will be the beta testers. This is especially true in the field of software.

It would also had been nice and this would've been a much more rewarding experience than just having the ability to exchange MD parameters to have the ability for ML as they see fit to have users to have the ability to have the software changed on the fly. The price of flash disks and ROM chips is cheap. We see it being taunted,"You can connect to your computer!!" and that's all you can do is exchange MD parameters or see what you have set up in your MD. That's "Revolutionary Technology"?

I am also waiting for a MD to have built in GPS so we can exchange and record where our finds were with parameter settings. Like having a program with auto database capabilities for the those not computer literate. I believe the pirates used do this with an X on the map?

 

[Rigit]

1 It is deeper

2 it is much quicker

3 has REAL FAST see thru ability in IRON

4 better in black sand and bad ground

5 runs much smoother and sweeter than any explorer I have ever sold or hunted with!

6 Bigger screen easier to read

7 Great control layout with fast on the fly mode switching sensitivity, as well as between 3 separate screens

8The depth meter is faster and more accurate

9 pinpoints much better with a true no motion mode

10 has a sizing pinpoint mode also

11has to separate ground modes neutral and difficult

12 4 stock patterns and 10 custom savable slots for patterns


13 Last but not least it is the latest technology by the WORLD LEADER IN DETECTING INNOVATION ******no new paint job**** REAL NEW Features that work BETTER*** they put their money on the BAR!

So this IS my list today..... ask next week or next year and I will be adding to it ....

Happy Trails
Jim Pugh

14 has a USB port for us to exchange patterns

15 E-Track is actually lighter than the Explorer

16 Improved hand grip and 15 deg angle change for better comfort

17 11.5" Pro coil for deeper finds

18 I will leave 18 for someone else still 17 reasons to be cheerful isn't bad is it !!

 

[John LA]

n/t