Not sold on 2 tone ferrous!

[JohnTN]

I have pretty much always used the Etrac in Conductive/Multi-tone. I have learned how to pick through the iron very well with it. I have been hunting an old home site the past few days and it is machine gun iron so out of curiosity I have been swapping over to 2 tone ferrous with an open screen and comparing targets. Most were very low conductors like thin brass and small lead up to and including CW mini balls. A couple would give a dig signal in 2 tone ferrous but for the most part would ID a grunt low tone NO DIG iron signals, while others would be a high tone blip about every 3rd or 4th pass of the coil over the target. When I would swap back to Conductive/Multi-tones the targets screamed dig me. Several of the targets were .577 Cal Enfields. I'm sorry I'm not putting much faith in the 2 tone ferrous at this point!

 

[CONDUCTOR7E]

Interesting.I use the 2 tone ferrous in the cellar holes in the ultra trashy ferrous areas.I mean areas that I have already gone over in Conductive mode and also received heavy nulling with the quickmask setting.2 tone Ferrous is definately not my primary choice.Not sure why yours did not pick up the lead however?
Jason

 

[NebTrac]

John, I hunt in conductive almost all the time. Even in heavy iron. I will say where 2-Tone ferrous helps me is on the "iffy" one way hits in conductive. Then I'll sometimes switch over to the 2-tone FE and listen and play with that signal. I've unearthed a couple of silvers, both barber dimes, this way. For me, its just a little more information to help me decide.

NebTrac

 

[BeachBumm]

John, I hunt in conductive almost all the time. Even in heavy iron. I will say where 2-Tone Fe helps me is on the "iffy" one way hits in conductive. Then I'll sometimes switch over to the 2-tone Fe and listen and play with that signal. I've unearthed a couple of silvers, both barber dimes, this way. For me, its just a little more information to help me decide.

NebTrac

But doesn't this defeat the advantage of being able to hear a cond target next to a Fe masking it? I mean, we are taking our machines back out to areas where have have grided in multi-tone (MT) cond and now in 2-tone (2T) Fe we are hearing these new sounds hinting at cond targets in and among the Fe. Not saying that this is the latest greatest thing . . it's just that if you hunt in MT and then switch over to 2T to compare, who's to say how many of those masked targets are still down there next to Fe? I have been only using 2T Fe when I am in an area where I have spent considerable time in MT cond cleaning the site out. Then I come back in 2T Fe and will switch between quickmask (keeping an eye on the depth) and maybe even MT cond before I make decesions.

Just my .02 cents worth.

HH, Mark

 

[JohnTN]

Beachbum the area I am hunting if you swing in 2 tone ferrous you will not find a dig signal no where amongst the iron signal ( all low tone grunts). You would think the area is totally sterilized of conductive targets. When I go into conductive/multi-tone targets begin to appear. This is why I started checking the signals It was WAY obvious to me that the Ferrous 2 tone was audio masking many targets. You simply do not have the same sound variation between target to hear good targets co-located with the iron. Not trying to make anyone mad I am just stating what my observation is with the 2 tone ferrous.

 

[Southwind]

I tend to agree. I've tried 2 tone ferrous with all the different settings from wide open to blanking out a few on the upper tier and really saw no advantage. I can tell iron more accurately in multi-tone. If I have an iffy signal in multi-tone, it remains iffy in 2 tone ferrous just less tones. A high false from iron in multi-tone also gives a false good in 2 tone ferrous just a lower tone like all the other good targets.

 

[NebTrac]

John, I hunt in conductive almost all the time. Even in heavy iron. I will say where 2-Tone Fe helps me is on the "iffy" one way hits in conductive. Then I'll sometimes switch over to the 2-tone Fe and listen and play with that signal. I've unearthed a couple of silvers, both barber dimes, this way. For me, its just a little more information to help me decide.

NebTrac

But doesn't this defeat the advantage of being able to hear a cond target next to a Fe masking it? I mean, we are taking our machines back out to areas where have have grided in multi-tone (MT) cond and now in 2-tone (2T) Fe we are hearing these new sounds hinting at cond targets in and among the Fe. Not saying that this is the latest greatest thing . . it's just that if you hunt in MT and then switch over to 2T to compare, who's to say how many of those masked targets are still down there next to Fe? I have been only using 2T Fe when I am in an area where I have spent considerable time in MT cond cleaning the site out. Then I come back in 2T Fe and will switch between quickmask (keeping an eye on the depth) and maybe even MT cond before I make decesions.

Just my .02 cents worth.

HH, Mark

Well as of yet I haven't gridded anything out. I just enjoy wandering and finding targets. I will say there are a FOR SURE - 2 times I have dug a signal that was alerted to me in Cond. (but sounded so much like falsings at times) that prompted me to check it out in 2-tone Fe (didn't think to try MT) and that sound, as I circled the target, kept me curious. When I get "curious"....I dig. Those 2 times both resulted in barber dimes. The first barber I got a hit, did the 90 and nothing...but the first hit was a good sound. Went to 2-T FE (this would be more like the area you are talking about, as I'd been over this spot many times) and got a hit on the 90 also.

I'm just having fun with the machine and still trying many suggestions from others about 2-T FE. One thing for sure I do is watch the numbers in 2-T FE. That "falsing" almost always shows up with a 01 FE number....and I will say its been my observation that SWING SPEED is critical here and another thing to take into consideration is ground moisture.

NebTrac

 

[utahshovelhead]

Neb about described it exactly as my experience has been as well with the 2 tone. Multi for me gives more info but curiosity and inquisitive behavior seems to work well on some questionable targets.

 

[Digger]

But doesn't this defeat the advantage of being able to hear a cond target next to a Fe masking it? I mean, we are taking our machines back out to areas where have have grided in multi-tone (MT) cond and now in 2-tone (2T) Fe we are hearing these new sounds hinting at cond targets in and among the Fe.

Actually, switching from Ferrous tones to Conductive tones (or vice-versa) doesn't do anything to increase or decrease target masking. It is simply a matter of whether you want to hear the audio response associated with the target(s) ferrous properties or hear the audio tone associated with the target(s) conductive properties. In my opinion, the advantage that most people experience by hunting in 2-tone ferrous is because they are opening up the screen and reducing the number of tones they have to decipher. In other words, when they hunt in conductive tone mode, it usually has some discrimination built in. And more times than not, it is one of the Preset Coin patterns (or a modification of one) with multiple tones. Regardless of the number or tones, the amount of rejection or whether you hunt in ferrous or conductive mode, the E-TRAC detects all metal targets. Even those that are "rejected". The difference is that rejected targets null out the Threshold (target blanking), If the detector blanks out near an accepted target, that good target could be masked, due to the "carry over" blanking efect of the adjacent rejected target. Much of this could be avoided by simply slowing down the sweep speed. When most people switch to 2-tone ferrous, they are opening up the screen (no rejection) and are now able to hear the ferrous properties of each target. In 2-tone ferrous, a low tone means a ferrous TID higher than 17 and a high tone means the TID has a ferrous value of 17 or less. Once they hear the tone they are "tuned in to", it is simply a matter of checking the Conductivity value (on the TID) to determine whether they want to dig it or not. If they would open up the screen while using 2-tone conductive mode, just as they do when they use 2-tone ferrous, they would hear a low tone for targets with a conductivity from 01 - 25 and a high tone on targets with a conductivity from 26 - 50. Then you would make your "dig or not to dig" decision based on the Ferrous value (on the TID). With the majority of US coins having a ferrous TID on or around 12, in sites with a lot of iron trash, it is much easier to listen for the high ferrous tone (2-tone ferrous) and check the TID for the conductivity value. How you hunt depends on whether you want to hear the target's ferrous properties and visually check the conductive value, or hear the conductive properties and visually check the ferrous value.
Again, in my opinion, regardless of how many tones you have set up, or whether they are for the conductive properties or the ferrous properties, I believe the reason some people are now finding more coins using 2-tone ferrous in areas they have hunted before is due to having an open screen, and eliminating the target blanking (nulling). I base my opinion on the fact that the E-TRAC detects all metals. You determine which ones you want to hear and the pitch you want to hear them. JMHO HH Randy

 

[gregliss]

For me I find that iron often will faulse across the top of the screen. I have the screen open with a small strip across the top that I took/borrowed from Andy's Coin program. This cleans up the audio an encredible amount and a bit easier to make the dig decision, but I guess that comes at a cost of possibly masking a target near that odd peice of iron that faulses high on the screen. Works a teat for me, however I only use it in iron patches and prefer Conductive - multi in nearly all other situations.

Another word of warning with 2-tone Ferrous: I consider it a mode not suitable for the real deep coins and this is why. It's change over line for a low tone is only on the FE17 line, if your after deepies very often you will get FE numbers lower on the screen than this, I've have had countless as low as FE24 on very deep coins, others on the forum as low as FE28 (The "FE shift" I call it). So if I was running 2-T Ferrous I would have not dug one of them, got a low tone and kept walking. Running 4 tone ferrous would combat this FE shift if you considered digging the top three tones and only ignored the bottom tone. This effectively makes your "cut-off" at FE 30 allowing for the FE Shift on the deep ones, and is roughly where most people run there iron mask in conductive anyway, except minus the discrimination so possibly a little more depth.

Cheers all

 

[jbow]

I use both... but I tend to use minimum disc with both, usually a modified relic pattern, sometimes in conductive i'll disc out 49 annd 50 conductive and 01-02 ferrous with enough of the 01-02 line disced back in so I don't miss silver dollars... I always use the modified relic pattern in either ferrous sounds or conductive sounds, I just add the other sometimes when I hunt in conductive... (credit to Andy's book for the stuff I add to the relic pattern) I NEVER hunt with no disc at all but I know what you mean, sometimes I feel like I might be missing stuff with Ferrous/2-tone even though I find stuff with it that other machines miss. I think both sound settings are good to use at the same site if you have time.

Just my opinion...

J

 

[Goes4ever]

I love two tone on sites I have hunted to death and quit giving up goodies in multi tone conductive sounds. Flip into two tone and magically there is a bunch of targets to dig again. It is not for everyone, you need to have a LOT of patience and go super slow.

Maybe you don't have the patience needed for being sucessful with 2 tone ferrous. I have personally scored a ton of keepers from sites I have pounded and simply quit giving up. It is my secret weapon and literally swear by it!

 

[jbow]

Were you using a little disc? If you use an open screen (AM) in ferrous/2-tone the ET will not unmask in iron...

J

 

[JohnTN]

Jbow I tried the open screen and a relic pattern I wrote that includes very little disc. I'm a dig all nonferrous guy around old houses going down 1 layer at a time.
I tried the 2 tone ferrous at this site after all the big iron and all the easy trash was gone. After about 2 hours of swinging in 2 tone ferrous with my modified relic pattern I had only had maybe 2-3 targets that gave a repeatable or semi-repeatable high tone . Thinking surely there were more targets to be found. I went back to Multi/Cond. and there were many targets to dig. I started flipping back to 2 tone ferrous and checking the targets I was now aquiring in Multi/Cond. and the 2 tone ferrous would give NO indication of anything other than iron. I tried everything to make the 2 tone /ferrous including open screen- Quick mask with 1-2 bottom lines blanked and my relic pattern. Same results with each a solid low tone grunt with no hint of a conductive target present. After digging many of the targets were small thin brass, lead buckie balls and 3 enfields. Left me scratching my head for sure.

 

[NebTrac]

Jbow I tried the open screen and a relic pattern I wrote that includes very little disc. I'm a dig all nonferrous guy around old houses going down 1 layer at a time.
I tried the 2 tone ferrous at this site after all the big iron and all the easy trash was gone. After about 2 hours of swinging in 2 tone ferrous with my modified relic pattern I had only had maybe 2-3 targets that gave a repeatable or semi-repeatable high tone . Thinking surely there were more targets to be found. I went back to Multi/Cond. and there were many targets to dig. I started flipping back to 2 tone ferrous and checking the targets I was now aquiring in Multi/Cond. and the 2 tone ferrous would give NO indication of anything other than iron. I tried everything to make the 2 tone /ferrous including open screen- Quick mask with 1-2 bottom lines blanked and my relic pattern. Same results with each a solid low tone grunt with no hint of a conductive target present. After digging many of the targets were small thin brass, lead buckie balls and 3 enfields. Left me scratching my head for sure.

Were you using HIGH TRASH setting at this spot John? I'm just curious and am assuming you were.

I'd definitly be scratching my head as well and wondering why this is happening.

NebTrac

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

I think your last paragraph is key. Its not the 2-tone that is important, it is the lack of discrimination. I think 2-tone ferrous label should be open screen ferrous. Many of us have been doing that for years.

 

[Ray-Mo.]

Does sound a bit strange as I have found 2 tone ferrous to be the hottest on lead bullets down to tiny bird shot.It works best for me with just the top line disc-ed out except right corner for big silver.I have found it best to run in manual sen. at 28-30 as well.
I do believe conductive with same amount of disc will hit just as many targets with a slight depth advantage but the iron will drive you crazy at ultra trashy sites.My 9" silver dime sounds much better/stronger in conductive for me.

 

[Gaz]

I honestly believe that if a target is Fe12 when dug.......it's FE12 in the ground!!!
People still believe they are digging good targets when they're in the FE20's. I put it to you that there is something ferrous in the same hole which is dragging the Ferrous signature down.
I have called this 'target blending'. The result is an FE12 blending with an FE35 and giving you an FE24!!!

My mate and I did an experiment one Sunday on a club dig. We wanted to put this to bed so dug every target in the FE20's.......it was all rubbish!!!

As already mentioned in some posts.....the main advantage is no disc so no nulling so no recovery lag.
I have tweaked my Expert settings so I have FAST ON, DEEP OFF and Volume Gain 30. This removes loads of un-necessary filtering which causes a lag but also amplifies deep targets without addional filtering.

One thing to also mention is that these settings increase target separation no end. This now removes the 'blending' of two close targets and gives you a distinct high and low tone in the same hole.

JMHO,

Gaz.

 

[Jack Flynn]

I now am a believer that it is how your detector is set up to be very successful in multi tone. I was made a believer this morning. I'll post about that in a while. I've had my E Trac for about a year and a half and really just got it set up where I can really tell what is in the ground. Like Randy said, in trash slow is the key with both modes, snail slow. I had my best hunt ever this morning and am stoked. I'm not that much enthused about 2TF. I have to look at the TID all the time. My strong point is hunting with my ears then looking at the TID when she squeals. Slow slow slow and both work very well. I'm just a multitone guy I guess.

 

[Digger]

Slow is the key. If you hunt this fast..... you'll leave most of it behind! JMHO HH Randy