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Park closed to detctorists

Coinseeker 78

New member
I have detected this park for about 4 years without a problem. The local Police often wave or stop and talk with me. Today I was detecting and a park patrol officer not the police stopped me from detecting and said you can't dig holes on city property. He said you could detect but not dig, He asked me for ID and went to his car and called the police. A Patrolman came to the scene and said I would have to get a permit from the mayor before I could hunt. There are no signs in the park prohibiting detecting and no articles in the paper about any changes in the law. I checked and could not find anything prohibiting metal detecting or cutting plugs in the park. This park was founded in the 1920s and is hunted very often by many detectorists While the park patrol was at the car checking my ID I filled the hole up and when he returned I asked him if he could tell where I had dug the plug. He could not tell but said that did not make any difference. It is getting pretty bad when you wrap a fortune up in metal detectors and lose more hunting grounds every day, The joggers and park users know me and consider me one of the park fixtures. I guess that is over now
 
There is no specific law banning metal detecting. But you have city workers and cops who can interpret other rules that do not allow you to dig. The clue is he said you could detect but not dig.

So sound like they will get you on vandalism, mischief, damaging city property....etc etc. I seen this happen years ago in Portland Maine. No law against detecting but the parks douchebags would toss you out for damaging city property and the cops would go along since technically they can't decide who's right or wrong so side with the parks weenies. Even asked the chief of police and said no law against detecting but if the parks people claimed your digging was destruction or damaging city property they had to boot you.
 
Over here in the UK 99.9% of all parks have a no detecting policy,you may have one or two that allow the use of detectors but with a draw back of not allowing any form of digging and of course as we aware what good is allowing detecting without digging.

The sole reason why they dont allow it is 'health and safety' and the way the world has become 'claim crazy' its much easier just too place a blanket ban across all public amenities than some old lady walking a dog and trips over a hole that someone has dug while detecting,just look on the televison you will find claims experts that will take on a claim at the drop of a hat and sue the council.

And this could well be the reason that you have been stopped detecting the park that you have done for the last 4 years,of course we see it as doing no harm but it only takes one claim and all the hassle of a legal challenge they could do without.This is the main reason over here why they do it the US may be following the same way.

Of course i may well be wrong and i hope you get back digging again in your park.
 
I blame the new TV shows that do NOTHING to promote our sport in a dood light.
I caanot recall one time that I saw them filling their holes.
Just dig, recover, show off the find, and then hoop and holler like a couple of buffoons.
 
Next thing you know, the squirrels will be getting the boot. Their holes are the size of golf balls. You can't tell where I have dug, but you sure can see their holes.
 
It only takes 1 over zealous park employee wanna-be cop' type or wanna-be supervisor or similar individual to ruin it all for metal detectorists. Like has been previously stated, most laws/rules can be tweaked to go against you digging holes no matter how good you fill them afterwards and leave the scene. I hear of detectorists in England that use night vision and only go out doing their work at night. Their finds are awesome and while it's said that they get some incredible finds, I do not condone it because there must be a law that covers that (aside from the trespassing) and will probably land you in jail, but that is what it's coming too in England. BTW I'm flying to England this summer to detect fields which I already have permission to do because of the no detecting bans in the parks. Been there done that.
 
Parks in Portland , Maine have been closed to detecting several times over the years because of inconsiderate, careless people who left gaping unfilled holes and junk targets laying where they were found. The Parks maintenance people have an obligation to the taxpayer to preserve these parks. The sad thing is that the majority of people causing the damage do not even live in Portland. Why people think they have the "right" to go to a town they do not reside in, or contribute anything to, and do as they please on what they perceive as " public" land. is beyond me. Many times, public land is reserved for residents of that town only. While there may not be specific laws against metal detecting in a certain park, there is an obligation by ALL detectorists to leave that park better than they found it. If they don't, it won't be long before there IS a law. .I have been metal detecting for 53 years and ALWAYS get written permission before I hunt any site.
 
Hi Coinseeker 78, I believe many of us would agree with Songdog's thoughts about all the TV programs. I also believe it is past time for some serious consideration be given to those sponsoring such programs, as there are, from what I understand, some who are directly associated with the metal detector industry, and for "whatever" reasons, would have us believe they are" promoting" the hobby. Maybe for fast heavy volume sales profit at "our" expense?? Maybe and maybe not , but whatever the reason, they need a" wakeup call" , and that can easily be done by those buying,, or not buying their product. Small a part as it is, that would possibly give some of us a bit of satisfaction by knowing we had a part in the direction of slowing our hobby's complete demise. I base some of my thoughts on the obvious amount of BS seen in the TV programs and the vast amount of advertising BS being directed toward potential "newbie"l metal detector buyers. But then, maybe the BS spread agreement is just a "coincidence". Just my thoughts. HH, Charlie
 
fowlercharles said:
Hi Coinseeker 78, I believe many of us would agree with Songdog's thoughts about all the TV programs. I also believe it is past time for some serious consideration be given to those sponsoring such programs, as there are, from what I understand, some who are directly associated with the metal detector industry, and for "whatever" reasons, would have us believe they are" promoting" the hobby. Maybe for fast heavy volume sales profit at "our" expense?? Maybe and maybe not , but whatever the reason, they need a" wakeup call" , and that can easily be done by those buying,, or not buying their product. Small a part as it is, that would possibly give some of us a bit of satisfaction by knowing we had a part in the direction of slowing our hobby's complete demise. I base some of my thoughts on the obvious amount of BS seen in the TV programs and the vast amount of advertising BS being directed toward potential "newbie"l metal detector buyers. But then, maybe the BS spread agreement is just a "coincidence". Just my thoughts. HH, Charlie

That's a good point, Charlie. Who sponsors these programs anyway? I know a GE or GM/Ford or whoever wont care, but I'm all in with a boycott of metal detecting retail outlets that give those shows money.
 
I would disagree with those of the answers so far, that pin this blame on either: a) TV shows about detecting, or b) past md'rs who "left holes",

The reason I am not so quick to have the knee-jerk reaction of those two oft-cited reasons, is this:

For: a) I've been at this for 35+ yrs. now. LONG before any such shows came out. And TRUST me: bootings (because some busy-body perceived you might be about to leave holes) has ALWAYS been going on. And I highly doubt that many non-md'rs are watching that junk. I mean, sure, we've all tuned into it (if for nothing else but curiosity). Why? Because we're into md'ing, doh! ;) And as such, we are victim to the pscyhology known as "portrayal". The thinking that ... in the same fashion ... so too is everybody else tuning in. And when we see a glaring error or poor portrayal that we gasp at, we automatically "portray" that so too have all sorts of other people tuned in, and have gotten turned off by the same mis-perceptions. But think about it: When was the last time you tuned in to the home shopping channel? The Yoga Channel? Real Housewives of NY? informercials on kitchen blenders? etc... Of COURSE you and I don't watch that type stuff (because we're not into yoga, or blenders, or hollywood gossip, etc...). But those type people that are into those things, when they see an error on those shows, they too portray that everyone is watching, everyone cares, etc... Thus I highly doubt that anyone, except those like us might be "into that", are watching. But even if you disagree with this, it still doesn't matter, because as I say: Bootings where someone says "because of holes" has been going on LONG before those shows.

And for b) While it's certainly possible that "someone left holes" thus leading to a city-wide rule (or policy of interpretation on existing rules), you also need to take this into account: The person booting you might say "because of holes" or "you can't dig", right? So what's the knee-jerk reaction of the md'r ? It's to think this: "durned those people who must've left holes in the past". But this too need not necessarily be the case. Because let's face it guys: What is the inherent implication and connotation of metal detectors .... TO BEGIN WITH (even if the casual observer has never actually seen one in use before, or paid attention before, etc...)? HOLES of course. Even when they have no actual case of past holes, or have ever encountered one left by an md'r, it can STILL be the automatic assumption (understandibly so), when they see an md'r, and the wheels-of-thought get started in their brain (I mean, doh, how else are we going to recover those things?). And when the come up to boot you, they cite "holes", or "dig", but it never meant there was actually ever a case in the past that they're aware of.

But let's cut to the chase: All cities, in every state, have rules for their parks which ALWAYS forbid things like "alterations", "defacement", "vandalism", and so forth. I mean, duh, of course. Because how else would they prosecute someone who puts graffitti on walls, or sets fire to the picnic benches, etc...? But all such verbage distinctly and inherently refers to the end results, right? In other words, if you leave the park exactly as you found it, then technically, you have not alterED, defacED, or vandalizED anything, now have you? Now sure, someone can come up and debate those semantics with you if they want, I agree. And sure, this doesn't solve the dilema if the word "dig" is used in the rules (but which I would still argue pertains to the end results).

The trouble is going to be, that you can certainly go argue that 1) there is nothing specifically forbidding detecting, and 2) that verbage about "alterations" and so forth don't apply, because you leave no trace. But the problem is going to be, that you will be on the loosing end of that argument. I mean, let's face it: why should they be bothered? If they say "yes ok" to you, then the next yahoo may not be so careful, so .... what do you think the easy answer is going to be?

So I do not accept verbage about digging, alterations, and so forth to apply. Yes someone else can come up and morph those things and say they apply, sure. It can happen. But we can not assume ahead of time that they do, lest ..... you might as well give it up now and choose another hobby. Because as I say, rules like that exist everywhere. Yet as we all know (for example as attested to by your having gone 4 yrs. and no one cared less!) that most of the time, so long as you're not being a nuisance, sticking out, or actually leaving a mess, then ........ no one cares or thinks to morph such things.

Thus I've gotten to where I just avoid those busy-bodies. And yes, you have to develope a tough skin if turf-hunting is your type hunting, because you can't 100% gaurantee that such encounter will never happen. Even going in ahead and time and thinking "permission" (as if it were needed) will solve that, fails on 2 counts: 1) they can just say "no you can't", when no one would ever have cared or noticed (till you asked), or 2) they can say "sure, have a ball, go ahead". But the someone else comes along and gripes. You proudly whip out your "permission". So that cop or gardener gets on his phone, calls down to city hall, and says ".... but he's tearing the place up" (which isn't true, but guess who they'll believe?). And then guess what happens to your "permission"? It gets promptly revoked. So permission is rarely the answer either then (nor was it necessary to begin with, if there wasn't a *specific* prohibition, in my opinion, no-more-so than you'd think you need permission to fly frisbees).

I've had places like that, where I detected for years unbothered, yet one day got booted. And to be honest with you, I just give that one place a rest, and go back later anyhow. I mean, just avoid "just that one person" or "just that one park", etc.... Like for example, sometimes when it's a cop doing the booting, believe it or not, they're just responding to a call (when perhaps they personally could care less). And when they show up, they're duty-bound to follow through and satisfy "miss lookie-lou" who griped because she thought you were bothering parakeets. Or if it's a gardener that did the booting, then odds are, their shifts end at 5 or 6pm, right? Or don't work Sundays right?

We have a major park here in CA, in a major city (the park is many square miles big) where ....... it's been detected for 40+ yrs. now. In that time, there's been a few lone isolated incidents where someone got booted, or told "you can't do that". And oddly, like in your situation, other gardeners could care less, or you can waltz right in front of cops on their lunch breaks sitting in their squad cars up on the street while you're in plain view of them. It could be just a single gardener or official with a "bee in his bonnet" who just doesn't happen to like mdr's (because he connects the dots of the admitted connotations). Or someone "just having a bad day", etc.. WHO KNOWS? And on one of those occasions, several of us discussed it on regional specific forum for our area, and got up in arms thinking "we need to fight this" or "we need to get this clarified" etc.... But in the end, we coorporately decided that it's better left alone and NOT makes ourselves an issue of a "pressing question that needs attention". In other words, we all sort of ... wink wink .... knew that it was rare, and that truth-be-told, there was probably just a single guy to avoid, and just give that one fellow lip-service, etc.... Contrast to if we were to start asking, petitioning, fighting, etc... we might only end up with a new policy or rule, to fit this.

I have parks where I've been booted before, and just gave them a 6 month rest. Go back later, and ..... odds are, it was an isolated incident. But this is case-specfic of course. I mean, sure, if it's a small Mayberry RFD town with city-hall and police dept. over-looking the park, or some such thing where you can't give lip service, and simply go later, or to another park, then ..... that's on a case-by-case basis.

But if there's no actual specific rule (and I don't mean ancillary "alterations" stuff), then I would just return at a more opportune time. Heck, it's gotten to where I hunt turfed parks at night now. So peaceful. So serene. No busy-bodies or lookie-lous :)
 
I too have done this a long time and been booted from parks long before the shows started for many of the reasons you stated.

............................ It is of my opinion those shows will do nothing to help keep parks open though.. or help you get private sites to detect.........

I have gone to City Council meetings and inquired in open meetings where the ordinance was saying no detecting... None was available. But plenty of no defacing. No digging. No damage. In fact most City parks have those ordinances in effect. Once your advised, in essence your taking a risk of being charged once you are asked to not detect..

The best thing you can do is get City Council to say in an open meeting you can detect so the general ordinances do not apply to detecting.. which is not damaging the property, but is actually digging anyway you want to look at it (LOL)............and if your breaking the grass blanket you are defacing the park to a degree.Not to mention trespassing if you have been asked to not do that activity..

[size=medium]Tom. I'm not arguing with you. We are on the same side. I'm just pointing out. One can be charged once asked to not detect !![/size]

To just go at a different time isn't always the best option... if you do. Be ready to pay a possible fine..
 
Elton said:
.... [size=medium]Tom. I'm not arguing with you. We are on the same side. I'm just pointing out. One can be charged once asked to not detect !![/size] .... To just go at a different time isn't always the best option... if you do. Be ready to pay a possible fine.....

Elton, thanx for adding that :) You're absolutely right that if a cop (or ANY "duly appointed official") says that you're violating such & such ordinance (no matter how arbitrary and whimsical), that if the person continues to do the activity, then "presto", they can be in supposed violation of the law. You know, it's the same old song and dance of like when they're trying to clear the streets during a demonstration, and someone refuses to vacate the sidewalk. So they get hosed with a water cannon and try to sue the cops. The cops say "well I warned him to leave the sidewalk and leave the district", but the hippy says "but it's not illegal to stand on the sidewalk", blah blah blah.

So I'm not saying to publically defy an order, go right back and do the same thing, etc... I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND that this will fall afoul of the above principles. I'm just saying that in cases where cops are "given latitude" to interpret the laws as fits the circumstance, then why (oh why oh why) would someone go back and make available for further scrutiny while an iron is still hot? I mean, for example: one time a cop came up to give me and a few buddies grief in San Francisco, CA. He was a nice cop though, and told us the reason for his presence that "someone called". And ...... no doubt he was "mindfully aware" that whomever it was that called (no doubt one of the high-rises that over-looks the park) was probably watching down on the scene. He booted us, but you could tell he was heeing and hawing for a reason or rationale to even do it (as if he personally didn't care or wouldn't have noticed). Now as you are saying Elton: If I'd given him lip service and left, ONLY TO HAVE RETURNED 30 MINUTES LATER after he left, then ......... SURE I'd have to be ready for a "possible fine". But if I'd have interpretted that as "a new rule" or "something I need to fight or get clarified", NO, I do not look at situations like that as things like that as "a rule that exists in this city".

That was 8 yrs. ago. And I have no doubt that if I went to that end of that park, at that same park, that I'd probably be ignored. I mean, a) what are the odds that that person lives there still? b) What are the odds they're looking out their window today or are having a "bad day" like they were 8 yrs. ago? c) what are the odds that the same cop would respond to a similar call, from the same person, and even remember that occurance from 8 yrs. ago?

See?
 
It didn't sound from the OP, like there was any offical "permit". More like, this is just a general deflection of "you need a permit from so & so". Not like there's any real "permit" to apply for.
 
Tom, you make excellent and valid points, as always.

As much as I dislike the detecting shows I've seen, I do agree with you that it's important to remember that the detecting sky isn't falling - most people haven't watched them and never will.

And you are right, inconsiderate and/or ill-informed detectorists have been leaving holes and defacing property since the dawn of detecting.

But common sense makes me think the number of metal detecting bans that are arbitrarily enacted on somebody's whim pales in comparison to the number of bans that come about because of damage done by poor retrieval practices.

I disagree with you, and I'll admit it's based solely on personal observations and anecdotal stories from others, when you dismiss the detrimental effect of these TV shows on the hobby.

I have been approached over and over in the last year or so by strangers when detecting like never before. I mean it's not even close. When I get to chatting with these folks who have just started or are just preparing to start the hobby, the constant has been that they have been influenced to start detecting by Diggers.

There is undoubtably an influx of people taking up our hobby because of this show. I've got nothing against new people taking up detecting, heck we were all newbies at some point. But with the screwball antics, overvalued and exaggerated number of good finds, and lack of even the fewest of seconds to show the correct way to do it, there is no way that the number of detectorists out there mucking it up could not be going up.

KinTN, Garrett detectors is one of the sponsors of Diggers, that's why they use AT detectors and ProPointers on the show. That's also why you see the "as seen on Diggers" tagline in some of Garrett's ads.
 
marcomo, thanx for reading/seeing what I'm saying. I'll also say that I acknowlege and try to see what you're saying as well. "Duly noted!"

You say:

...But common sense makes me think the number of metal detecting bans that are arbitrarily enacted on somebody's whim pales in comparison to the number of bans that come about because of damage done by poor retrieval practices......

Well, that's something that neither of us can ever substantiate or prove. No one will ever know the "genesis" of every single law or rule. And even when someone says "because of holes", I hope you can admit that that can just be the "go to" answer by someone you or I are pestering. It doesn't mean there ever WAS an instance of "someone who left holes", but can just be because it's their knee-jerk image when tasked with thinking of "metal detectorists".
 
"No digging" does not mean no retrieval. If your city ordinances allow detecting in public places but tell you no digging they mean no holes, plugs etc. However, the use of a screwdriver up to 3/8" may be allowed for retrieval. You need to call city hall or visit them. I did and they gave me a copy of the rules. Permits used to be required but, not any longer. There was a very small list of parks that were off limits for reasons only known to them. There are over 90 other parks to hunt, just in the city limits, the same amount outside those limits but, I'm quite sure the same rules apply.
Don't get that discouraged, if you like to hunt in this park make the effort to use a screwdriver. If the city allows their use, your parks workers won't be able to boot you.
Good hunting.
 
I also was in no way trying to take away from your very valid rational in your posts.

My Only point was........ " if you are asked to not detect"............. if you would go back at a different time in a recent nature.......... it's possible you will be charged..

Thank you for the great post Sir..
 
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