Find's Treasure Forums

Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!

You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.

Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.

Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.

Click here to register!



Need Support Help?

Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you

Question

jackintexas

New member
I own an E-Trac and have owned other Minelab detectors. But I have often wondered , do they actually process 28 frequencies or are they just calling the harmonics another frequency? Not knocking Minelab. Very happy with mine. But just wondering.....Jack
 
Bottom line is does it really matter??? The results I get with my E-Trac is all that matters to me:thumbup: I think Andy's post about what is under the hood is right on the money.
 
Sorry, I do not agree,and the answer to your question is no.You will get great results with your Etrac it is one of the top 3 detectors on the market you need to give it a good 40 hours in the field before it really starts talking to you,Buy Andy's Sabisch Book- The Explorer and E-trac Handbook it will explain almost everything you need to know.No offense Ray-Mo I just disagree and I think its time that everyone in this country should be looking under the hood checking things out on everything for themselves.
 
Minelab never claimed they processed 28 frequencies that I know of.
 
Prep1957 said:
Sorry, I do not agree,and the answer to your question is no.You will get great results with your Etrac it is one of the top 3 detectors on the market you need to give it a good 40 hours in the field before it really starts talking to you,Buy Andy's Sabisch Book- The Explorer and E-trac Handbook it will explain almost everything you need to know.No offense Ray-Mo I just disagree and I think its time that everyone in this country should be looking under the hood checking things out on everything for themselves.

do you know exactly how the computer in your car controls fuel delivery, valve timing, exhaust emisions, etc?

I suppose you understand exactly how your computer is compressing and decompressing data strings that enable it to transmit data 1000's of times faster than 20 years ago.

Why should "we" have to know everything about everything. This isn't 1911 where the most complicated thing was a set of cog gears. The fields of engineering that create these take years of study.
 
Been detecting 35 years. Owned about 40 or so detectors. Own 12 now. Just to say I am not a newbie. As I said I own an E-Trac. Very good detector. But Minelab always stresses the number of frequencies their detectors transmit. Been in electronics about all my life .From repairing radar to industrial electronics. I don't see anything wrong with the question. After all that is their big selling point. ......Jack
 
It is just that Jack, a selling point. It doesn't make any difference if they transmitted 3, 28 or 100 frequencies, the end result would be the same.
 
Like the others, I don't know either. Maybe some process so they can use best freq or signal or maybe some process to use an average of the 28.
 
If you can technically understand it this is a link to a paper by Bruce Candy:

http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/11043/METAL%20DETECTOR%20BASICS%20AND%20THEORY.pdf

The most important concept to understanding how the "frequencies" are derived is "multi-period rectangular waves". Now an obvious question is why do I understand it? And the most relevant answer is that I've designed circuitry that utilizes "multi-period rectangular waves" to synthesize multiple frequencies, but not for anything metal detecting related and long before the release of the above paper.

What makes it very difficult to explain the above is that it is a departure from what was long the technological base line for metal detector detector design. That being single frequency technology, akin to playing a single key on a piano. Next along came the dual frequency technology with a Fundamental frequency and a Harmonic frequency akin to playing two keys on a piano towards building a chord. And now another manufacture's use of the Fundamental plus two Harmonics to build a chord. And the other big issue which I won't even try to explain is that it's being done in the Time Domain and not the Frequency Domain.

First in order to understand why the above technology is being used is to understand the mission statement of why the FBS detectors exist. Their primary mission is to hunt for goodies in trashy parks and this means having superior discrimination. The FBS method provides the best information for discrimination with a very in depth explanation in the above paper.

So let's see if we can bring this more into layman's terms with things that are more familiar.


The FBS detectors listen in on what Minelab calls three Channels. The purpose of the three Channels is to have optimum frequencies for low conductive targets, medium conductive targets, and high conductive targets being processed all at once.

Oddly enough some of the above general concept is related to the X-terra platform. On the X-terra you have a choice of 3KHz, 7.5KHz, plus 18.75KHz coils and those frequencies are NOT harmonically related. Now let's design a new X-terra model called the Variable X-terra. It will transmit on all three frequencies at once, but it will have the ability to automatically vary it's three core frequencies widely within a certain Band(or as Minelab calls it on FBS a Channel). Let's predefine our band(Channel)limits; our 3KHz can automatically vary from 2KHz to 5Khz, our 7.5KHz from 6KHz to 12Khz, and our 18.75KHz from 15KHz to 23KHz. So we are standing in a field and turn on the Variable X-terra.....the internal computer takes a look at the conditions and says wait a minute we have some problems here. The ground is showing a strong response at 18.75KHz so off the computer goes and chooses 17KHz as our Low Conductivity Channel. Likewise 3KHz is showing EMI problems so the computer searches around and finds 4KHz as quiet and that is our High Conductivity Channel. It turns out 7.5KHz is just ducky so the computer leaves that alone. None of the chosen frequencies are harmonically related because of the use of "multi-period rectangular waves".

Why is this superior to a Fundamental plus two harmonics? Because in order to shift the Harmonics I "have to" shift the Fundamental. And if I end up in a situation where I "have to" shift the Fundamental then the two harmonics are going to shift also. Now consider where I have an EMI issue on the Fundamental frequency but when I shift it I run into an EMI issue on one of my Harmonics, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Using the FBS method it can arbitrarily shift the frequencies to optimize the detector. Therefore because of the "multi-period rectangular waves" Minelab can transmit 28 frequencies and listen in on the best frequency within each Channel(Band) for the three different conductivity levels.

Therefore, and I hope this is clear, the three Frequencies being listened to today may not be the same as being listened to the next day depending on local conditions. The computer is designed to pick the best three and can arrive at that decision in seconds with what could take you half an hour of twiddling to do.

Is FBS perfect? Uh no! It's not very adept at finding small gold jewelry, but on the flip side you won't be driven mad by small bits of foil while searching for gold rings either.

BarnacleBill
 
I also have an inquiring mind but it tends to concentrate on what I can do with my detector set-up/coil selection to help find more goodies rather than the tech part of the machine.Keeps me from getting a headache :)
 
I did not mean to open up a can of worms. But someone makes a claim I don't see anything wrong with being interested in the claim. All I have had so far was it doesn't matter. If someone makes a claim no matter what the product I think it should be proven. Thanks a lot to Barnical Bill for his explanation. I printed the Bruce Candy paper to study later. I have had several Minelab detectors. Own an E-Trac now.I guess I am just interested in technical data.. That is just me. If anyone were to ask me what was the best brand of detector out there. I would say Minelab. .....Jack
 
BarnacleBill said:
If you can technically understand it this is a link to a paper by Bruce Candy:

http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/11043/METAL%20DETECTOR%20BASICS%20AND%20THEORY.pdf

The most important concept to understanding how the "frequencies" are derived is "multi-period rectangular waves". Now an obvious question is why do I understand it? And the most relevant answer is that I've designed circuitry that utilizes "multi-period rectangular waves" to synthesize multiple frequencies, but not for anything metal detecting related and long before the release of the above paper.

What makes it very difficult to explain the above is that it is a departure from what was long the technological base line for metal detector detector design. That being single frequency technology, akin to playing a single key on a piano. Next along came the dual frequency technology with a Fundamental frequency and a Harmonic frequency akin to playing two keys on a piano towards building a chord. And now another manufacture's use of the Fundamental plus two Harmonics to build a chord. And the other big issue which I won't even try to explain is that it's being done in the Time Domain and not the Frequency Domain.

First in order to understand why the above technology is being used is to understand the mission statement of why the FBS detectors exist. Their primary mission is to hunt for goodies in trashy parks and this means having superior discrimination. The FBS method provides the best information for discrimination with a very in depth explanation in the above paper.

So let's see if we can bring this more into layman's terms with things that are more familiar.


The FBS detectors listen in on what Minelab calls three Channels. The purpose of the three Channels is to have optimum frequencies for low conductive targets, medium conductive targets, and high conductive targets being processed all at once.

Oddly enough some of the above general concept is related to the X-terra platform. On the X-terra you have a choice of 3KHz, 7.5KHz, plus 18.75KHz coils and those frequencies are NOT harmonically related. Now let's design a new X-terra model called the Variable X-terra. It will transmit on all three frequencies at once, but it will have the ability to automatically vary it's three core frequencies widely within a certain Band(or as Minelab calls it on FBS a Channel). Let's predefine our band(Channel)limits; our 3KHz can automatically vary from 2KHz to 5Khz, our 7.5KHz from 6KHz to 12Khz, and our 18.75KHz from 15KHz to 23KHz. So we are standing in a field and turn on the Variable X-terra.....the internal computer takes a look at the conditions and says wait a minute we have some problems here. The ground is showing a strong response at 18.75KHz so off the computer goes and chooses 17KHz as our Low Conductivity Channel. Likewise 3KHz is showing EMI problems so the computer searches around and finds 4KHz as quiet and that is our High Conductivity Channel. It turns out 7.5KHz is just ducky so the computer leaves that alone. None of the chosen frequencies are harmonically related because of the use of "multi-period rectangular waves".

Why is this superior to a Fundamental plus two harmonics? Because in order to shift the Harmonics I "have to" shift the Fundamental. And if I end up in a situation where I "have to" shift the Fundamental then the two harmonics are going to shift also. Now consider where I have an EMI issue on the Fundamental frequency but when I shift it I run into an EMI issue on one of my Harmonics, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Using the FBS method it can arbitrarily shift the frequencies to optimize the detector. Therefore because of the "multi-period rectangular waves" Minelab can transmit 28 frequencies and listen in on the best frequency within each Channel(Band) for the three different conductivity levels.

Therefore, and I hope this is clear, the three Frequencies being listened to today may not be the same as being listened to the next day depending on local conditions. The computer is designed to pick the best three and can arrive at that decision in seconds with what could take you half an hour of twiddling to do.

Is FBS perfect? Uh no! It's not very adept at finding small gold jewelry, but on the flip side you won't be driven mad by small bits of foil while searching for gold rings either.

BarnacleBill




Out Standing answer.It took me 50 dollar dinner to have a friend completely tear down an Etrac and explain just what you said the FBS was doing.I am not very good with processors, generation gap I guess I am too old.By the way he thought the Etrac was a very low tech device compared to what he usually works on.He also said that we could double the depth with more power and second transmitter with same frequency placed far enough away to prevent bridging.Have you ever tried that?It seems to be working but having trouble identifying bridging boundaries.Most of my hunts trying this involved Ridged Seek Tech 20 transmitter has infinite frequency selection and large coil to choose from. Plus 2nd transmitter would stay legal with FCC restrictions if someone were to try and put into production.Charging the ground works very good also but is labor intensive putting rods in ground like cathodic protection system.Again thank you for answer and path to more information.
 
That last comment from prep57 sounds interesting.
Sounds similar to the old fishing worm scheme:
Stick two metal rods in the ground,hook them to a car battery or house current and watch the worms come out of the ground.
So charging the soil would make metallic targets more responsive to a metal detector ???
 
Top