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Sunray x-12 o sef 10x12
- Thread starter confite
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
You can read some comparisons in the Sovereign forum under the 12x10 thread that is currently going. Mainly, I suspect the more tightly compressed left/right width wise detection field of the 12x10 would make it much more better to separate targets. An added (in theory) potential bonus to this is that the 12x10 should also be riding on less ground or soaking in less ground matrix, making it deeper in high mineralized soils where say a typical round 12" or even stock 10" coil might not shown increased depth. The target should be soaking in less ground matrix or content, and so cleaner IDs at greater depths should (once again, IN THEORY) be possible.
Now, by the same token I would suspect that the S-12 might give better depth than a 10" coil in lower minerals, perhaps even matching that of the 12x10, but I suspect as ground mineralization increases the 12x10 is more likely to retain it's depth ability while a conventional round coil might start suffering in it's depth ability. This is only my current working theory, as I have only recently received the 12x10 and am currently conducting tests on it in my higher mineral ground sites.
We can see this effect more clearly demonstrated among typical VLF (non-BBS or FBS machines), where they have much more trouble in handling ground matrix due to the differences between conventional ground balance on those machines versus the ability of BBS and FBS technology. For example, I've hunted sites with the 5.3" coil on my Whites that gave deeper target ability and cleaner IDs than the stock 9.5" coil. These effects caused by the ground matrix are less apparent on Minelabs, but just the same do exist under certain conditions.
Despite higher sensitivity levels while remaining stable in my experience with both the 15x12 and now the 12x10 in comparison to the stock 10" coil, this does not automatically translate into more depth in higher mineral situations. Often a much lower sensitivity setting than what is perfectly stable will provide best depth with any coil, and in some respects gives merit to the relationship between how much ground matrix the coil is seeing (being hotter with higher sensitivity) and thus how much depth it can achieve. Sensitivity can only compensate to certain degrees for the type of ground being scanned.
The size of the coil then must be changed to change performance factors. Just because you go bigger in coil size does not mean it's going to get deeper. By that I mean that you may have found in certain ground that your 10" or 11" stock coil provides best depth, while going to a conventional round coil bigger than that (say 12") in fact gets less depth. You seem to have hit a road block, but not necessarily so.
My theory (again, yet to be proven) is that the 12x10 is riding on less ground with it's much tighter in the left/right perspective detection field than a round 12" coil or even the stock 10" coil for that matter. It seems equally as deep or deeper in terms of the DD detection signal as conventional coils, yet by simple virtue that it is stewing in less ground signal it may in fact be able to see deeper targets without as extensive of degradation that occurs with other coils. As I test these theories and comparisons between these coils I'll be posting reports in the Sovereign forum under that thread.
Now, by the same token I would suspect that the S-12 might give better depth than a 10" coil in lower minerals, perhaps even matching that of the 12x10, but I suspect as ground mineralization increases the 12x10 is more likely to retain it's depth ability while a conventional round coil might start suffering in it's depth ability. This is only my current working theory, as I have only recently received the 12x10 and am currently conducting tests on it in my higher mineral ground sites.
We can see this effect more clearly demonstrated among typical VLF (non-BBS or FBS machines), where they have much more trouble in handling ground matrix due to the differences between conventional ground balance on those machines versus the ability of BBS and FBS technology. For example, I've hunted sites with the 5.3" coil on my Whites that gave deeper target ability and cleaner IDs than the stock 9.5" coil. These effects caused by the ground matrix are less apparent on Minelabs, but just the same do exist under certain conditions.
Despite higher sensitivity levels while remaining stable in my experience with both the 15x12 and now the 12x10 in comparison to the stock 10" coil, this does not automatically translate into more depth in higher mineral situations. Often a much lower sensitivity setting than what is perfectly stable will provide best depth with any coil, and in some respects gives merit to the relationship between how much ground matrix the coil is seeing (being hotter with higher sensitivity) and thus how much depth it can achieve. Sensitivity can only compensate to certain degrees for the type of ground being scanned.
The size of the coil then must be changed to change performance factors. Just because you go bigger in coil size does not mean it's going to get deeper. By that I mean that you may have found in certain ground that your 10" or 11" stock coil provides best depth, while going to a conventional round coil bigger than that (say 12") in fact gets less depth. You seem to have hit a road block, but not necessarily so.
My theory (again, yet to be proven) is that the 12x10 is riding on less ground with it's much tighter in the left/right perspective detection field than a round 12" coil or even the stock 10" coil for that matter. It seems equally as deep or deeper in terms of the DD detection signal as conventional coils, yet by simple virtue that it is stewing in less ground signal it may in fact be able to see deeper targets without as extensive of degradation that occurs with other coils. As I test these theories and comparisons between these coils I'll be posting reports in the Sovereign forum under that thread.
I do not have an E-Trac but I have had a Safari for over a year. I had a SEF 10X12 and was not satisfied at all with it. Got a Sun-Ray X-12 and it seems to be made for my machine. It is very deep separates targets very well runs quiet and pin-points perfect. Like Ray said the Pro-Coil is hard to beat but at the beach or open areas the X-12 is great on my machine. Maybe I got a bad SEF because Bryce on the Explorer forum and the Soveriegn guy's like them but that X-12 really works good on my machine. JMHO Good Luck on your choice. HH 
OhioCoinHunter
New member
I have the 10x12 sef coil. It does an excellent job in mineralized soil. It definitely goes deeper than my Pro coil and separates extremely well. I also can run manual sensitivity much higher than I can with the Pro coil where I notice much more falsing. The only downside I can think of is that it's heavier than the Pro coil. I've never used a Sunray coil so I can't tell you anything about them.
Hey, I've got both and use them both quite a bit on an etrac and a safari. The x-12 is a full 12.5", whereas the 10x12 is really only about 11" through the center, this doesn't sound like much of a difference, but side by side it is quite obvious. Therefore, I think of the sunray as a large coil and the 10x12 a mid range one like the procoil. The sunray x-12 is considerably lighter, and I use this when I have to scan large areas either to find old coin hot spots or because there is a low signal density. That said, I've used the x-12 in really trashy parks and have done well with it. I use the 10x12 when I want to go as deep - I am not sure if it is deeper than the x-12, but thats how I use it. I do not have a definitive - one is better than the other answer - both are good - but if I already had a procoil, then I would go for the x-12.
Critterhunter
New member
I'm pretty sure these SEF coils are to true proportions in terms of size. I measured my 15x12 and it was right on. I'll measure my 12x10 to be sure, but compared with the stock 10" coil on my GT it sure looks like a 12x10 to me. The 12x10 is not as heavy as you think. In fact, it's lighter than the S-12 on the Sovereign, and even though the FBS version is heavier it's still lighter than the S-12 if you remove the coil cover. Here's the chart I did. These weights are actual user weights and not company specs, unless otherwise noted...
I almost hate to follow Critterhunter, he is quite knowledgeable. However, I have the SR 12 and my friend has the Sef 10X12. He did much better than I did in Virginia where the soil was very hot. Locally in Ohio, the coils are very close. The depth is the same and pinpointing is slightly better on the SR 12 in high trash areas.
Ohio Bud
Oldest Silver 42BC Roman Emperor Lepidus--Oldest Gold 550AD Saxon Pommel End, Next Gold 1350 Edward III, Next Gold 1660 Gold Charles II, Next Gold 1864 Victoria. This was on 4 trips to the UK.
Ohio Bud
Oldest Silver 42BC Roman Emperor Lepidus--Oldest Gold 550AD Saxon Pommel End, Next Gold 1350 Edward III, Next Gold 1660 Gold Charles II, Next Gold 1864 Victoria. This was on 4 trips to the UK.
I may be wrong about the actual weight, and I am happy to be corrected, but the x-12 "feels lighter" on the machine to me - this could be balance or just psychological. Also the SEF 10x12 foot print is 12 inches long, but the central "blade" is shorter. By the central blade I mean the "body of the butterfly" - the wings extend to 12" but the body does not. It does not detect much past if at all past the central blade in my tests. Lastly, the x-12 is made in USA and the SEF in eastern Europe if you care about that kind of thing.
Critterhunter
New member
The SEF coils mount dead center. Much better balance than say the 10" coil that has the shaft mount more towards the back. It makes them less nose heavy, and balance can be just as important as weight on a machine.
My theory is that the 12x10 will see less ground than a 12" or probably even a 10" coil. The left/right DD detection field on this coil seems very tight. The 15x12 was an improvement over the stock 10" coil in that respect, but you can REALLY feel this razor sharp edge on the 12x10. It makes my GT react faster, separate easier, and almost feels like somebody turned up the clock speed of the detector. If I didn't know otherwise I would have bet money on that had you handed me a mystery Sovereign with this coil on it.
Anyway, since the left/right field this thing generates seems much tighter with less "slop" off to the sides my theory is it's stewing and soaking in less ground matrix. Results are higher sensitivity and probably better depth with less target degradation. Although these FBS and BBS machines are light years head of the competition in terms of ignoring ground minerals, they are still subject to bad effects from them when the minerals get real bad. Thus my unproven as of yet theory (just got my 12x10) is that you'll get deeper and see targets that aren't washed in as much ground matrix, meaning deeper/cleaner target IDs than say a 10" or a 12" conventional DD round coil. That's where you'd probably see the 12x10 take the lead in moderate to high mineral sites, where as in low mineral locations they probably are very close to each other.
I'd still give the 12x10 more points for better separation, pinpointing, and stability. The audio also seems much crisper and reactive. In fact, on my GT it sounds like the audio pitch has been turned up a fair bit on targets. Never would have guessed changing coils could do that to the audio. I suspect the tighter left/right field makes some how for higher pitched responses over targets. Now my silver hits sound as high as my old QXT Pro. Good, I've trained my ear more for that. Not that the stock coil or 15x12 doesn't give the kinds of tones I like, it's just that the 12x10 makes them a little higher where I'm used to it from prior machines.
I'll say this...Although the 15x12 was an improvement in all respects over the already great stock 10" Tornado (A much better coil than the 10" coils I had on my Explorers), it did not go as deep on land due to my high minerals. Sure, it would often run at higher sensitivity settings and be stable, but in my soil max stable sensitivity doesn't equal best depth. Just like on my Explorers, I have to bury a dime and calibrate that way. Too high can degrade or even null out targets, even if these machines seem to run fine. Doesn't matter which coil you are using, either. The 15x12 did go much deeper than the stock coil in sand though. Can't figure that out because my beaches are highly mineralized too. Anyway, that's why I traded the 15x12 for the 12x10. My theory is that this coil can push a little deeper than stock, where as a conventional 12" coil or bigger will be seeing too much ground matrix and get even less depth than the stock 10" coil. In fact, some people in high mineral areas get more depth from an 8" coil because of this. Less a problem on BBS and FBS machines but still an issue once you pass certain limits.
Pinpointing on the 15x12 or 12x10 is better than the stock 10" coil. Probably better than any machine I've ever owned. Use the tip or the tail and wiggle away from and towards the target. As soon as you hear it it will be at the base of the "V" the coil forms at the top and bottom edges. Repeat from 90 degrees and it's dead on. So good I hardly use PP mode and just use discriminate to PP targets. Also deadly for picking a coin out of trash where as regular PP mode might sound off to trash or high ground minerals. Many times PP mode can't hear a deep target for me, where as it's easy to hit and PP in discriminate.
I also love using the tip of these SEF coils for investigating multiple targets. Wiggle the tip at the targets to try to splice them apart. These SEF coils seem just as deep or deeper than conventional DD designs from tip to tail, but they also seem to have a hotter concentric center to them about the size of a soup can or so. That's why I don't like using the center to PP, but I don't even use the center on my stock coil. I prefer using the tail on that. Tips for the SEFs on land, but I also use the tails of them in the water. Stick your big toe in the "V" and that's right where you need to scoop. Although these things seem real hot towards the center, they'll still separate targets very well swept over dead center. It just goes from good to amazing when you use the tip or tail of the coil to split targets apart you never would have thought you could do otherwise.
Although the 15x12 would often allow much higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil, when I did my buried dime test more often than not sensitivity would end up much further down the scale, roughly where the buried dime test would have me set the stock 10" coil...About 2PM at most sites, perhaps higher at others. That's even though max stable sensitivity could be say 10PM (it goes counter clockwise on the Sovereign to highest) or even full max manual without falsing. Now, with the 12x10 I'm finding that this coil will also go to max sensitivity without getting unstable, probably even at more sites than the 15x12. But the real interesting thing is that with the buried dime test my sensitivity usually now ends up being much higher than it would be for the other coils. 9 or 10AM I'm finding at most sites so far, a much higher sensitivity for "best/easiest/most stable" ID on the buried dime.
I stick the dime 6 to 9" deep and then check it by wiggling or short sweeping over it. Often too high will cause the ID to wander or be erratic, or even null the target. Too low can also null it or make you work harder to wiggle the target to proper ID. Once you get the dime at fringe depth (for that site) you'll find a very specific setting on the dial will get proper ID with little effort, hold it there easier, and won't jump randomly on you.
My theory is that the 12x10 will see less ground than a 12" or probably even a 10" coil. The left/right DD detection field on this coil seems very tight. The 15x12 was an improvement over the stock 10" coil in that respect, but you can REALLY feel this razor sharp edge on the 12x10. It makes my GT react faster, separate easier, and almost feels like somebody turned up the clock speed of the detector. If I didn't know otherwise I would have bet money on that had you handed me a mystery Sovereign with this coil on it.
Anyway, since the left/right field this thing generates seems much tighter with less "slop" off to the sides my theory is it's stewing and soaking in less ground matrix. Results are higher sensitivity and probably better depth with less target degradation. Although these FBS and BBS machines are light years head of the competition in terms of ignoring ground minerals, they are still subject to bad effects from them when the minerals get real bad. Thus my unproven as of yet theory (just got my 12x10) is that you'll get deeper and see targets that aren't washed in as much ground matrix, meaning deeper/cleaner target IDs than say a 10" or a 12" conventional DD round coil. That's where you'd probably see the 12x10 take the lead in moderate to high mineral sites, where as in low mineral locations they probably are very close to each other.
I'd still give the 12x10 more points for better separation, pinpointing, and stability. The audio also seems much crisper and reactive. In fact, on my GT it sounds like the audio pitch has been turned up a fair bit on targets. Never would have guessed changing coils could do that to the audio. I suspect the tighter left/right field makes some how for higher pitched responses over targets. Now my silver hits sound as high as my old QXT Pro. Good, I've trained my ear more for that. Not that the stock coil or 15x12 doesn't give the kinds of tones I like, it's just that the 12x10 makes them a little higher where I'm used to it from prior machines.
I'll say this...Although the 15x12 was an improvement in all respects over the already great stock 10" Tornado (A much better coil than the 10" coils I had on my Explorers), it did not go as deep on land due to my high minerals. Sure, it would often run at higher sensitivity settings and be stable, but in my soil max stable sensitivity doesn't equal best depth. Just like on my Explorers, I have to bury a dime and calibrate that way. Too high can degrade or even null out targets, even if these machines seem to run fine. Doesn't matter which coil you are using, either. The 15x12 did go much deeper than the stock coil in sand though. Can't figure that out because my beaches are highly mineralized too. Anyway, that's why I traded the 15x12 for the 12x10. My theory is that this coil can push a little deeper than stock, where as a conventional 12" coil or bigger will be seeing too much ground matrix and get even less depth than the stock 10" coil. In fact, some people in high mineral areas get more depth from an 8" coil because of this. Less a problem on BBS and FBS machines but still an issue once you pass certain limits.
Pinpointing on the 15x12 or 12x10 is better than the stock 10" coil. Probably better than any machine I've ever owned. Use the tip or the tail and wiggle away from and towards the target. As soon as you hear it it will be at the base of the "V" the coil forms at the top and bottom edges. Repeat from 90 degrees and it's dead on. So good I hardly use PP mode and just use discriminate to PP targets. Also deadly for picking a coin out of trash where as regular PP mode might sound off to trash or high ground minerals. Many times PP mode can't hear a deep target for me, where as it's easy to hit and PP in discriminate.
I also love using the tip of these SEF coils for investigating multiple targets. Wiggle the tip at the targets to try to splice them apart. These SEF coils seem just as deep or deeper than conventional DD designs from tip to tail, but they also seem to have a hotter concentric center to them about the size of a soup can or so. That's why I don't like using the center to PP, but I don't even use the center on my stock coil. I prefer using the tail on that. Tips for the SEFs on land, but I also use the tails of them in the water. Stick your big toe in the "V" and that's right where you need to scoop. Although these things seem real hot towards the center, they'll still separate targets very well swept over dead center. It just goes from good to amazing when you use the tip or tail of the coil to split targets apart you never would have thought you could do otherwise.
Although the 15x12 would often allow much higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil, when I did my buried dime test more often than not sensitivity would end up much further down the scale, roughly where the buried dime test would have me set the stock 10" coil...About 2PM at most sites, perhaps higher at others. That's even though max stable sensitivity could be say 10PM (it goes counter clockwise on the Sovereign to highest) or even full max manual without falsing. Now, with the 12x10 I'm finding that this coil will also go to max sensitivity without getting unstable, probably even at more sites than the 15x12. But the real interesting thing is that with the buried dime test my sensitivity usually now ends up being much higher than it would be for the other coils. 9 or 10AM I'm finding at most sites so far, a much higher sensitivity for "best/easiest/most stable" ID on the buried dime.
I stick the dime 6 to 9" deep and then check it by wiggling or short sweeping over it. Often too high will cause the ID to wander or be erratic, or even null the target. Too low can also null it or make you work harder to wiggle the target to proper ID. Once you get the dime at fringe depth (for that site) you'll find a very specific setting on the dial will get proper ID with little effort, hold it there easier, and won't jump randomly on you.
Jack Flynn
New member
Well all I can say is I love the X 12! I've had the 6X8 SEF and the 10X12 SEF and really enjoyed using them. They are great coils for sure, they just lack one thing imo.....coaster wheels to swing them around on. Both are heavy in comparison to other coils their size. Sunrays all the way for me!
Critterhunter
New member
Did you look at that weight chart I compiled with actual user weighed weights? It ain't heavier.