Trashy Park

[Tom_in_CA]

Charles, whenever I hear someone say that they can or have learned the ability to tell alloyed gold apart from aluminum, by virtue of sounds, tones, smoothness, etc.... I challenge them: Meet me at a blighted junky park, and let's turn you loose. See how much gold you get, and how much aluminum you leave behind. EVEN if only a 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 ratio. And after you give them this challenge, you hear nothing but the sound of chirping crickets.

If ever a person digs a gold ring (after digging 50 foil and aluminum), yes, they will say to themselves: "Aha! That one sounded different!" (and then figure they can isolate and learn that sound). But this is nothing more than the trick of selective memory bias. Every time you and I stop to dig a signal, we're subconsciously thinking "this one sounds different". And after it turns out to be junk, we forget our premonitions. Or think "come to think of it, it *did* sound kind of junky". But when one FINALLY turns out to be gold, only THEN do we remember our premonitions and say "aha! I knew it".

JMHO

 

[tc8745]

I did not mean to open up a can of worms,,I just think that minelab is making this new detector sound like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread,,Theres still a lot of other good detectors out there that still work really well,,I still think the manufacturers have other surprises in technology,I would like to see in my lifetime,,But it's getting late early for me,,,

 

[Southwind]

I do very well with my E-Trac in trashy parks. If the Equinox does at least as well I'll be happy.

Like I said before. Give me a 2 1/2 lb E-Trac with a faster processor and able to hit on the small odd shaped golf like earrings/pendants/ chains and I'm in heaven. LOL

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

Charles, whenever I hear someone say that they can or have learned the ability to tell alloyed gold apart from aluminum, by virtue of sounds, tones, smoothness, etc.... I challenge them: Meet me at a blighted junky park, and let's turn you loose. See how much gold you get, and how much aluminum you leave behind. EVEN if only a 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 ratio. And after you give them this challenge, you hear nothing but the sound of chirping crickets.

If ever a person digs a gold ring (after digging 50 foil and aluminum), yes, they will say to themselves: "Aha! That one sounded different!" (and then figure they can isolate and learn that sound). But this is nothing more than the trick of selective memory bias. Every time you and I stop to dig a signal, we're subconsciously thinking "this one sounds different". And after it turns out to be junk, we forget our premonitions. Or think "come to think of it, it *did* sound kind of junky". But when one FINALLY turns out to be gold, only THEN do we remember our premonitions and say "aha! I knew it".

JMHO

As a best practice do not challenge me LOL. I can call my shot on a Mercury dime vs a Barber dime just by tones, digest that one. You pretty much ignored what I said in my post. Did I not point out that to learn this by tones you have to dig a lot of gold and trash in a short period of time, yes I did and there you go.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... you have to dig a lot of gold and trash in a short period of time, ....

At what point does it become random chance ?

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

... you have to dig a lot of gold and trash in a short period of time, ....

At what point does it become random chance ?

I dunno maybe I'm just lucky! Explorer Se Pro tones through Sunray Gold headphones is the combination that works for me on gold. I have tried other headphones both for detecting and for listening to music, they either had too much treble or too much bass, Sunray Gold are the sweet spot for my ears.

Trivia: I once told Dave Z I could tell the difference between a Barber dime and a Mercury dime and he called BS and had a bit of a meltdown. This was back during the Whites DFX vs Minelab Explorer wars. Then I proved it too him on dug targets in the field and the poor guy looked at his DFX and started mumbling to himself it was hilarious. lol

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I could tell the difference between a Barber dime and a Mercury dime .....

Yes, now that I can believe. Because all dimes come off the assembly line exactly the same. And yes, although the book gives them identical composition and weight, the barber dimes seem thinner.

However, gold rings do not come off the assembly line uniform. Instead there is a million variations of sizes, karots, shapes, etc... And same for aluminum: A million shapes, wads, sizes, etc...

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

.... I could tell the difference between a Barber dime and a Mercury dime .....

Yes, now that I can believe. Because all dimes come off the assembly line exactly the same. And yes, although the book gives them identical composition and weight, the barber dimes seem thinner.

However, gold rings do not come off the assembly line uniform. Instead there is a million variations of sizes, karots, shapes, etc... And same for aluminum: A million shapes, wads, sizes, etc...

Tom its sort of thickness you are close. The trick with the Mercury dime IMO is their deep strike relief, it produces a bell like element to their tone vs other silver dimes Seated, Barber, Roosevelt which all sound flat to me in comparison. It was Mike Moutrey who got me thinking about why they sound different. Years ago, dang almost 2 decades ago he posted a sound file of a wheat cent if I remember it correctly. He swept the wheat cent, then lightly tapped it with a hammer and swept it again and dang the tone changed quite obviously. Again if I'm remembering this correctly, Mike thought what was going on was he relieved stress in the metal from its striking.

So the gold tone, its subtle but the Explorer tones do subtle very well. I'm sure you have read/experienced the "round sound" talked about by so many Explorer users over the years, that's another example. Can you call your shot on silver? Many can, why then would gold be any different. Its more difficult and for the very reasons you mentioned in some cases. Size and shape are factors, mostly I think its alloy. 10k for example let me think...I can't remember a 10k ring having this tone. But once you get to 14k, 18k oh baby love that tone.

So lets agree to disagree...for now. You can call me a bastard later when you prove this to yourself in the field and have to fess up. LOL This is very common. When I share something that's out there in lala land about the Explorer, in the spooky dark arts advanced level, quite frequently people have this reaction of disbelief. But their brain has now been infected with the information, time and time again they come back astonished after proving this to themselves in the field. So it may be 2 months or 2 years but I predict you will be back. Yes, its possible I'm evil! lol

 

[bugg]

Charles, I believe you being able to tell certain targets. I think a person has to have a sensitive ear for sounds though. I do not have a music ear.
I currently have a Rutus Alter 71 that I use on occasion. I call it my ring machine. It has 120 segments in the VDI scale. The majority of the aluminum targets show up on the numerical scale and jump a few numbers. The rings I have found lock into one number, the numbers do not bounce. Also the audio is a but more smooth. Now, some of the square tabs only give one number, so I get fooled into thinking its a ring. And some of the large titanium rings bounce a bit, but on average , I have tripled my ring take in trashy aluminum areas. This particular machine is amazing with its target ID down to 5 inches deep. Its really a relic machine, but when I want to look for rings in the alum trash pits , I use this one. I have called a few rings before I dug them up. Just one of the nuances a person can learn with a detector.
I am looking forward to the Equinox!

 

[D&P-OR]

Charles------Which of these two Minelabs do you feel has the best tonal quality element on silver dimes (tonal wise I.D.)----the Explorer 2 or the Explorer SE?---I would venture to say the Sunray Pro Golds can't be beat in this regard when matched to these detectors.-------Just curious about the (difference) in tonal quality on silver dimes with the before mentioned two detectors or if there is indeed any difference.---------BTW, I do believe you in what you are saying---the Explorers are some amazing detectors.-------------Del

.... I could tell the difference between a Barber dime and a Mercury dime .....

Yes, now that I can believe. Because all dimes come off the assembly line exactly the same. And yes, although the book gives them identical composition and weight, the barber dimes seem thinner.

However, gold rings do not come off the assembly line uniform. Instead there is a million variations of sizes, karots, shapes, etc... And same for aluminum: A million shapes, wads, sizes, etc...

Tom its sort of thickness you are close. The trick with the Mercury dime IMO is their deep strike relief, it produces a bell like element to their tone vs other silver dimes Seated, Barber, Roosevelt which all sound flat to me in comparison. It was Mike Moutrey who got me thinking about why they sound different. Years ago, dang almost 2 decades ago he posted a sound file of a wheat cent if I remember it correctly. He swept the wheat cent, then lightly tapped it with a hammer and swept it again and dang the tone changed quite obviously. Again if I'm remembering this correctly, Mike thought what was going on was he relieved stress in the metal from its striking.

So the gold tone, its subtle but the Explorer tones do subtle very well. I'm sure you have read/experienced the "round sound" talked about by so many Explorer users over the years, that's another example. Can you call your shot on silver? Many can, why then would gold be any different. Its more difficult and for the very reasons you mentioned in some cases. Size and shape are factors, mostly I think its alloy. 10k for example let me think...I can't remember a 10k ring having this tone. But once you get to 14k, 18k oh baby love that tone.

So lets agree to disagree...for now. You can call me a bastard later when you prove this to yourself in the field and have to fess up. LOL This is very common. When I share something that's out there in lala land about the Explorer, in the spooky dark arts advanced level, quite frequently people have this reaction of disbelief. But their brain has now been infected with the information, time and time again they come back astonished after proving this to themselves in the field. So it may be 2 months or 2 years but I predict you will be back. Yes, its possible I'm evil! lol

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

Charles------Which of these two Minelabs do you feel has the best tonal quality element on silver dimes (tonal wise I.D.)----the Explorer 2 or the Explorer SE?---I would venture to say the Sunray Pro Golds can't be beat in this regard when matched to these detectors.-------Just curious about the (difference) in tonal quality on silver dimes with the before mentioned two detectors or if there is indeed any difference.---------BTW, I do believe you in what you are saying---the Explorers are some amazing detectors.-------------Del

.... I could tell the difference between a Barber dime and a Mercury dime .....

Yes, now that I can believe. Because all dimes come off the assembly line exactly the same. And yes, although the book gives them identical composition and weight, the barber dimes seem thinner.

However, gold rings do not come off the assembly line uniform. Instead there is a million variations of sizes, karots, shapes, etc... And same for aluminum: A million shapes, wads, sizes, etc...

Tom its sort of thickness you are close. The trick with the Mercury dime IMO is their deep strike relief, it produces a bell like element to their tone vs other silver dimes Seated, Barber, Roosevelt which all sound flat to me in comparison. It was Mike Moutrey who got me thinking about why they sound different. Years ago, dang almost 2 decades ago he posted a sound file of a wheat cent if I remember it correctly. He swept the wheat cent, then lightly tapped it with a hammer and swept it again and dang the tone changed quite obviously. Again if I'm remembering this correctly, Mike thought what was going on was he relieved stress in the metal from its striking.

So the gold tone, its subtle but the Explorer tones do subtle very well. I'm sure you have read/experienced the "round sound" talked about by so many Explorer users over the years, that's another example. Can you call your shot on silver? Many can, why then would gold be any different. Its more difficult and for the very reasons you mentioned in some cases. Size and shape are factors, mostly I think its alloy. 10k for example let me think...I can't remember a 10k ring having this tone. But once you get to 14k, 18k oh baby love that tone.

So lets agree to disagree...for now. You can call me a bastard later when you prove this to yourself in the field and have to fess up. LOL This is very common. When I share something that's out there in lala land about the Explorer, in the spooky dark arts advanced level, quite frequently people have this reaction of disbelief. But their brain has now been infected with the information, time and time again they come back astonished after proving this to themselves in the field. So it may be 2 months or 2 years but I predict you will be back. Yes, its possible I'm evil! lol

On silver I can't say I have noticed a difference and I have owned all four models, XS, II, Se, and Se Pro. On nickels though a big difference Explorer XS vs all the later models. Trivia all four machines use a different coil, even the XS and II have different coil designs though you can't tell by looking at the outer shell. It seems guys were complaining about the XS being slow so Minelab sped up the II, the XS was a nickel vacuum sucking monster, nickels seemed big and fat compared to tabs, starting with the II it lost that nickel mojo and it was harder to tell a nickel from a tab.

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

Charles, I believe you being able to tell certain targets. I think a person has to have a sensitive ear for sounds though. I do not have a music ear.
I currently have a Rutus Alter 71 that I use on occasion. I call it my ring machine. It has 120 segments in the VDI scale. The majority of the aluminum targets show up on the numerical scale and jump a few numbers. The rings I have found lock into one number, the numbers do not bounce. Also the audio is a but more smooth. Now, some of the square tabs only give one number, so I get fooled into thinking its a ring. And some of the large titanium rings bounce a bit, but on average , I have tripled my ring take in trashy aluminum areas. This particular machine is amazing with its target ID down to 5 inches deep. Its really a relic machine, but when I want to look for rings in the alum trash pits , I use this one. I have called a few rings before I dug them up. Just one of the nuances a person can learn with a detector.
I am looking forward to the Equinox!

One theory on the smooth sound of gold could be comfort band wedding rings, both the inside and outside is rounded, perhaps its not the metal but the shape? When I get back to beach hunting I'll pay more attention to this and gather some data. I found the trick with square tabs is they sound different if you turn 90 degrees, rings sound pretty much the same from any angle and agree they don't bounce much if you are getting a good signal.

 

[BigTony]

Charles, they are giving you a run for thier money here.......
On my Exp II - gold sounds sweet - smoothe and puts a smile on my face even before I dig.
Most folks hunt for silver and they have it in thier minds that it has to be deep too. Sometimes silver is deep but for me many times it isn't.
Most folks don't p[ay attention to what the machine is telling them - it took me many years to learn it but am dam glad I did.
If I have to buy another one I'll take your advice and get the SE Pro with pro coil but for now it's Exp II with small 5 inch coil - then at times 10 x 12 sef or if I am feeling crazy 15 inch W

 

[sgoss66]

I don't know guys. I have an ear for music, to some degree, and yet I have a hard time with some of these nuances being described. There are some ring tabs, and some types of stay-tabs that have what my ears perceive to be pretty sweet sounds through my SE Pro's audio output to my SunRay Pro Golds.

I will work to "listen more closely," but I don't hear some of these subtleties, at least not yet -- and this is with 7 years of heavy use on the SE Pro (about 5 of which have been with the SunRay Pro Golds). Yes, at times, I can hear a change in tone as you rotate 90 degrees on a rectangular/stay-tab (which I attribute to the "non-round" shape; that slight change in tone you get from 0 degrees, to 90 degrees, to 180 degrees, to 270 degrees -- up a bit, and then down a bit, as you hit each sector -- that I can hear most times. But confidently differentiating a ring tab with no beaver tail, versus a gold ring, with your ears? I can't imagine that.

And calling a Barber vs. a Merc? Can't imagine that, most times. There are times when I will dig a Barber, that -- after the dig -- I am a bit surprised that it was silver because it wasn't quite "high-tone" enough for me to think silver, but it's almost always a worn one, and so my assumption is that a worn Barber (or Seated) dime does ring in just a bit lower than a high-grade Merc. Enough that you can hear a difference. Sometimes, I can do a pretty good job of nabbing nickels -- as they have a somewhat distinct tone to me, though there are definitely a very small number of rectangular tabs that totally fool me in that regard (sometimes, they are ones that are slightly bent, and thus look more "round" to the machine, and so able to really mimic a nickel to my ears). But wow -- any more than this, and it definitely seems to me to get into the voodoo black arts stuff! Whale acknowledging my relative inexperience, I would tend to agree with Tom in CA -- no idea how anyone could "call a gold ring," with all of the various sizes, shapes, etc. of pull tabs, ring tabs, folded/bent beaver tails, aluminum foil wads, etc. YES, my wedding ring sounds nice and sweet and smooth and "buttery" when I run the coil over it. But, so do -- to me -- various pieces of garbage I've dug up in the ground that I was just SURE had to be gold -- ones that sounded "sweet" and "different." The ONLY other thing I can say is when I do dig something I think sounds especially "sweet," but turns out to be trash, it USUALLY is something that I can at least understand WHY it sounded sweeter than another similar TID trash item -- like say a ring tab with no beaver tail, or a perfectly round, tightly-rolled ball of foil...versus a similar TID piece of can slaw.

Otherwise, wow. I need some lessons, Charles!

Steve

 

[BigTony]

Thinking about the alloyed gold - like a large men's 10kt school ring; your correct that isn't a sweet sound it's more of a coin sound.

 

[Jason in Enid]

sgoss, I can absolutely see someone hearing the difference between barber and other dimes. There is SOMETHING about them. My CTX almost always shows them a few points lower on the conductive scale than mercs or rosies. I prefer large blocks of target response so I dig all coins and dont care about possible tonal differences like that any more. Also, the round shape of a gold ring will be much more likely to give a perfect, solid response than the irregular shape of pulltabs.

Back in the old days of pre-computerized circuitry, I read about people who could tell the difference between silver and clad before they dug it. I sat in my living room for hours and hours over several weeks just passing clad and silver dimes over my coil (garrett MH-7) listening to them. Guess what, I LEARNED THE DIFFERENCE! I could tell you with about 90-95% accuracy if the target in the ground was silver or not. It just had a uniqueness to the sound that I couldn't put in to words but I could hear. I have never been able to hear a difference with modern machines.

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

Do you have FAST on or off? What about DEEP on or off? Are you running in all metal? Swing speed and swing technique on the target? I let the Explorer feed on the target signal, short 1-3 inch wide swings not fast, not slow motion but a slight dragging across the target. The faster you swing the less target information, FAST On will make this much worse. DEEP on will do the opposite fattening up targets 6 inches and below. So Fast On Deep Off is the double whammy in the opposite direction. When I hit a target I zoom in and let the Explorer feast on the signal with short moderate speed swings.

A gold wedding band signal is HUGE. The thing is like 2 feet wide in long tones, long tones show you just how large the signal is you can detect it outside the side/front of your coil its that large. Now start applying your settings, first switch to normal tones what just happened, yes it chopped off a whole bunch of the target signal to make it "appear" smaller as you sweep it. Obviously this helps with pin pointing and long tones in trash well forget it right but you did just lose a bunch of target signal by chopping it down to size with normal tones. Fast On chops off more of the target signal making it even smaller. Deep off if the target is 6 inches or deeper is similar to Fast On, the target seems smaller as you sweep it just due to depth, Deep on boosts the signal fattening it up.

Discrimination vs all metal, if you have a solid threshold and no nulling then it shouldn't matter. But if the machine is nulling then target then nulling, or trying to null or bits of null the I'd switch to iron mask setup as all metal and sweep the target again all metal getting rid of the nulls.

The RX (receive) winding in the coil delivers the best fullest possible signal to the control box. The TX (transmit) winding transmits at full power, always, no matter what your settings are. So here comes the full 100% signal from RX, after Minelab filters out the soil part of the signal, your settings take over. Your settings further chop pieces of this signal off, whittling it down. That's how to think about your settings. The more aggressive you are with your settings the more chunks of the target signal you chop off. You can boost what's left with gain and volume but you are boosting the chopped up part of the signal that's left.

This is where a lot of people get the Explorer backwards. They increase their gain then decrease their sensitivity because running their gain too high is boosting small false signals so high in volume they sound like targets. But what happens when you lower the sensitivity? Yes you chop off parts of the signal and frequently you chop off the entire target. That's the gotcha because your sensitivity setting is applied FIRST, then gain SECOND. So if you lower your sensitivity, deleting the target completely, there's nothing left for the gain to boost. Crank the gain to 10 it doesn't matter, the deep target is long gone due to lowering the sensitivity. It doesn't take much, a solid signal on a deep target can break up lowering your sensitivity 2 points and vanish lowering it 4 points.

I don't know guys. I have an ear for music, to some degree, and yet I have a hard time with some of these nuances being described. There are some ring tabs, and some types of stay-tabs that have what my ears perceive to be pretty sweet sounds through my SE Pro's audio output to my SunRay Pro Golds.

I will work to "listen more closely," but I don't hear some of these subtleties, at least not yet -- and this is with 7 years of heavy use on the SE Pro (about 5 of which have been with the SunRay Pro Golds). Yes, at times, I can hear a change in tone as you rotate 90 degrees on a rectangular/stay-tab (which I attribute to the "non-round" shape; that slight change in tone you get from 0 degrees, to 90 degrees, to 180 degrees, to 270 degrees -- up a bit, and then down a bit, as you hit each sector -- that I can hear most times. But confidently differentiating a ring tab with no beaver tail, versus a gold ring, with your ears? I can't imagine that.

And calling a Barber vs. a Merc? Can't imagine that, most times. There are times when I will dig a Barber, that -- after the dig -- I am a bit surprised that it was silver because it wasn't quite "high-tone" enough for me to think silver, but it's almost always a worn one, and so my assumption is that a worn Barber (or Seated) dime does ring in just a bit lower than a high-grade Merc. Enough that you can hear a difference. Sometimes, I can do a pretty good job of nabbing nickels -- as they have a somewhat distinct tone to me, though there are definitely a very small number of rectangular tabs that totally fool me in that regard (sometimes, they are ones that are slightly bent, and thus look more "round" to the machine, and so able to really mimic a nickel to my ears). But wow -- any more than this, and it definitely seems to me to get into the voodoo black arts stuff! Whale acknowledging my relative inexperience, I would tend to agree with Tom in CA -- no idea how anyone could "call a gold ring," with all of the various sizes, shapes, etc. of pull tabs, ring tabs, folded/bent beaver tails, aluminum foil wads, etc. YES, my wedding ring sounds nice and sweet and smooth and "buttery" when I run the coil over it. But, so do -- to me -- various pieces of garbage I've dug up in the ground that I was just SURE had to be gold -- ones that sounded "sweet" and "different." The ONLY other thing I can say is when I do dig something I think sounds especially "sweet," but turns out to be trash, it USUALLY is something that I can at least understand WHY it sounded sweeter than another similar TID trash item -- like say a ring tab with no beaver tail, or a perfectly round, tightly-rolled ball of foil...versus a similar TID piece of can slaw.

Otherwise, wow. I need some lessons, Charles!

Steve

 

[Southwind]

WOW to you guy's with such a fine tuned hearing. I've been a musician for over 50 years and I guarantee you I couldn't hear the difference between a 11-43 and a 11-42

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

To me silver sounds like softened fingernails on a chalkboard, not enough to make you cringe. I hear that in all silver coins, dimes through halves. Clad, wheats not so much. Wheat and copper cents sound very strong but lack the soft screech of silver.

 

[dbado1]

I swing a GPX for gold nuggets and use a mono coil %99.99 of the time...no disc. Over time a guy develops "an ear" for the "gold "tones". I can tell prior to digging the target, with great accuracy, if it's gold or not.
It has a sweet, mellow sound that is just slightly different than anything else.

Dean