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What is phase and phase angle and what do I learn from it?
- Thread starter jbow
- Start date
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
The "book" on phase angles with the V hasn't been written yet, so much more to learn. Here is a link when this was discussed last.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?66,1005883,1006034#msg-1006034
The best I can figure out is that a Phase Angle of 90 on the V is close to a VDI 0 on the DC Phase of the DFX. The Phase Angle of 168 on the V is equal to the DC Phase on the DFX of -94. A lot of testing and charting needs to be done and this could very well be another great tool for us to use.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?66,1005883,1006034#msg-1006034
The best I can figure out is that a Phase Angle of 90 on the V is close to a VDI 0 on the DC Phase of the DFX. The Phase Angle of 168 on the V is equal to the DC Phase on the DFX of -94. A lot of testing and charting needs to be done and this could very well be another great tool for us to use.
I'll go and read the link but this... "The best I can figure out is that a Phase Angle of 90 on the V is close to a VDI 0 on the DC Phase of the DFX. The Phase Angle of 168 on the V is equal to the DC Phase on the DFX of -94. A lot of testing and charting needs to be done and this could very well be another great tool for us to use."...
makes absolutely no sense to me. I've never used a DFX and have no idea what phase is, (in this context)... much less a phase angle. How it relates to the DFX means nothing to me.
I'll go read now...
Thanks though...
Julien
makes absolutely no sense to me. I've never used a DFX and have no idea what phase is, (in this context)... much less a phase angle. How it relates to the DFX means nothing to me.
I'll go read now...
Thanks though...
Julien
I think I understand a little but more. I am just not fimiliar with the terminology. I also read this thread: http://www.findmall.com/read.php?66,956463,956463#msg-956463
Though I don't understand the technical stuff or what "phase" actually means, I think what I should do is to zoom sensitivity, set my RX gain using the recommendation, maybe slightly higher if I can understand what the detector is telling me when I search... then zoom GT, zero, and check the phase though I am not sure to do with what I see there.
Anne says that it would be ideal for the signal strength in the sensitivity window zoomed to be at about 10%. What do you change to adjust the signal strength? The RX gain? I can probably figure it out but it is so much easier to ask you then go try it...
J
Though I don't understand the technical stuff or what "phase" actually means, I think what I should do is to zoom sensitivity, set my RX gain using the recommendation, maybe slightly higher if I can understand what the detector is telling me when I search... then zoom GT, zero, and check the phase though I am not sure to do with what I see there.
Anne says that it would be ideal for the signal strength in the sensitivity window zoomed to be at about 10%. What do you change to adjust the signal strength? The RX gain? I can probably figure it out but it is so much easier to ask you then go try it...
J
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
You are right again J, if you match the gain to what the V recommends, you will do well. I don't pay much attention to the phase angle because a lot of work needs to be done with that to understand it better. With the DFX, we used the DC Phase to help distinguish pull tabs and trash from possible gold rings/jewelry and the V3 Phase Angle should have some parallels with the DFX DC Phase. Time will tell as more people use it and understands it better.
BarnacleBill
New member
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,503237,503237#msg-503237
HH
BarnacleBill
HH
BarnacleBill
I think I am getting the idea. The phase angle is translated into a VDI number which is basically the VDI number of the ground. The phase numbers for the three frequencies are displayed when I zoom on ground tracking, zero and lower the coil. This tells me what is being cancelled, by the ground balance... right??
This begs the question. If my phase angle is translated to a VDI numbe of 84 will the V3 cancel out quarters? Or, am I misunderstanding.
If I am getting this right... what do I do with this info? Other than note it to compare with other sites?
I buried two quarters in my backyard yesterday, one at 11" and one at 8". I can only find the one at 8" when I set the filter to 7khz or lower and I can only hit the one at 11" because I know it's there. It's not the V3 though, I can't hit either with a Sovereign or Tejon. I can hit them with about the same confidence with the E-TRAC. I am going to try a different part of the yard tomorrow. There is nothing electrical in the area, I have underground utilities but they are in front and I can operate better in the front, closer to them... so I don't think that is the problem. I live in a semi-rural setting in a newer subdivision. There is a fire station across a patch of woods next to my home, maybe 75 yards away and the spot I chose is closest to the station. I wonder if I may be getting some sort of interference from their radios... this part of the yard is crazy for some reason.
Oh... sorry, I got off topic. Am I getting the idea of the phase and phase angle? I think that, if I am getting it right, the signal strength is an indicator of the mineralization of the ground and the phase just tells me where the ground cancel is cancelling... with both the angle number and a "normalized" VDI number.
I wonder, if the phase angel normalized VDI number falls somewhere close to targets I am hunting... would it be a good idea to hunt in one frequency, the one most likely to hit whatever it is in question and uncheck the "normalize"?? I see that normalize really doesn't change much in 7.5 but expands the high range in 2.5 and expands the low range in 22.5, which should help tell the difference between pulltabs and gold rings when using 22.5 and should help tell a difference between aluminum and coins in 2.5...
Thoughts? Even if the phase normalized falls near 84, running 2.5 un-normalized should be a good thing... if in fact I am understanding this... which is unlikely actually... laff.
J
This begs the question. If my phase angle is translated to a VDI numbe of 84 will the V3 cancel out quarters? Or, am I misunderstanding.
If I am getting this right... what do I do with this info? Other than note it to compare with other sites?
I buried two quarters in my backyard yesterday, one at 11" and one at 8". I can only find the one at 8" when I set the filter to 7khz or lower and I can only hit the one at 11" because I know it's there. It's not the V3 though, I can't hit either with a Sovereign or Tejon. I can hit them with about the same confidence with the E-TRAC. I am going to try a different part of the yard tomorrow. There is nothing electrical in the area, I have underground utilities but they are in front and I can operate better in the front, closer to them... so I don't think that is the problem. I live in a semi-rural setting in a newer subdivision. There is a fire station across a patch of woods next to my home, maybe 75 yards away and the spot I chose is closest to the station. I wonder if I may be getting some sort of interference from their radios... this part of the yard is crazy for some reason.
Oh... sorry, I got off topic. Am I getting the idea of the phase and phase angle? I think that, if I am getting it right, the signal strength is an indicator of the mineralization of the ground and the phase just tells me where the ground cancel is cancelling... with both the angle number and a "normalized" VDI number.
I wonder, if the phase angel normalized VDI number falls somewhere close to targets I am hunting... would it be a good idea to hunt in one frequency, the one most likely to hit whatever it is in question and uncheck the "normalize"?? I see that normalize really doesn't change much in 7.5 but expands the high range in 2.5 and expands the low range in 22.5, which should help tell the difference between pulltabs and gold rings when using 22.5 and should help tell a difference between aluminum and coins in 2.5...
Thoughts? Even if the phase normalized falls near 84, running 2.5 un-normalized should be a good thing... if in fact I am understanding this... which is unlikely actually... laff.
J
BarnacleBill
New member
J,
You immediately went above my pay grade with questions.
I don't own a V3 and I haven't even read the manual as my interests in it are in a few very focused aspects which will be answered by field use of others. The purpose of my post was to provide a visual representation of phase/ID/disc that you could use to refer to in possible further discussions. Keep in mind that ID/VDI/TID is all arbitrarily decided by the detector designer, though that is not to say it is without a scheme or forethought. i.e. A copper penny has an empirical electrical signature within the bowels of the circuitry. But what ID the designer decides to manifest to the detector operator is completely within their purview. The same can be said about ground matrix information. I'm sure someone will be along to answer your more V3 specific questions as I believe they are relevant and will further educate other V3 users.
HH
BarnacleBill
You immediately went above my pay grade with questions.
I don't own a V3 and I haven't even read the manual as my interests in it are in a few very focused aspects which will be answered by field use of others. The purpose of my post was to provide a visual representation of phase/ID/disc that you could use to refer to in possible further discussions. Keep in mind that ID/VDI/TID is all arbitrarily decided by the detector designer, though that is not to say it is without a scheme or forethought. i.e. A copper penny has an empirical electrical signature within the bowels of the circuitry. But what ID the designer decides to manifest to the detector operator is completely within their purview. The same can be said about ground matrix information. I'm sure someone will be along to answer your more V3 specific questions as I believe they are relevant and will further educate other V3 users. HH
BarnacleBill
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
You are already above my head on this J, like I said, the book on phase angles and how to utilize them has not been written yet.......... maybe you are the guy to do it......
jbow said:
Yes. But this isn't controlling the tracking - just telling you information.
jbow said:
No. Tracking is limited to phase angles of 165-180 degrees (non salt) or 82-180 degrees (salt). Salt comes in close to 90, but is a tad bit off, so that's why the lower phase is 82 rather than 90. In standard three frequency (non salt) the grounds you'll see are within the range of 165-180 and you don't want the detector to track out targets - whether they are iron or coins.
jbow said:
Note how it compares to other sites or any other use you find for it. It was for us for development. You can use it how you find it useful. It's information.
jbow said:
I think you are understanding it pretty well. One thing you might want to do and try out, cancel the ground and look how your targets read. When you zero the loop in the air and then bring it down to the ground, you get the ground reading. But, if you have the loop on the ground and zero, then move the loop over your target, you should get a phase reading of the target. It should be close to what it would VDI in normal search mode, but it's a little different so will be a little off. But, that might get you a better reading on the phase of your target to tell you which single frequency you might want to use.
Normalized tries to make the targets come in at the same VDI no matter which frequency is running. But, in single frequency mode, yes, that does mean that it is still able to expand its range a bit. Unchecking it will give you much better readings for the range you are interested in if in single frequency mode. But, your VDIs will not be anything like you are used to. (Nickels normalized come in at about 19 or 20, unnormalized at 22.5kHz, they come in much higher - something like 45? I forget the exact number). But, you will be able to see a wider range of VDIs for targets in that area running in single frequency with normalized off.
Thanks Anne,
It will take some digestion... can you elaborate a little on this:
"But, if you have the loop on the ground and zero, then move the loop over your target, you should get a phase reading of the target. It should be close to what it would VDI in normal search mode, but it's a little different so will be a little off. But, that might get you a better reading on the phase of your target to tell you which single frequency you might want to use.".
I understand how to do it and will use the info to compare but I am not sure what the phase # over the target will tell me to try.
What, for instance, (in particular), would I see that would tell me to try one frequency over another? Like if the phase number goes up or down over the target will that indicate a lower or higher frequency might be a good choice?
Can you give a scenario or is it theory to be developed by use?
I assume that I would use this info if I were hunting for a particular known VDI target, like if I am just hunting one thing.. ie: buttons, or lead, or silver but not all three. Right?
I have a new/old churchyard to hunt. Going there today.
Thanks again,
Julien
It will take some digestion... can you elaborate a little on this:
"But, if you have the loop on the ground and zero, then move the loop over your target, you should get a phase reading of the target. It should be close to what it would VDI in normal search mode, but it's a little different so will be a little off. But, that might get you a better reading on the phase of your target to tell you which single frequency you might want to use.".
I understand how to do it and will use the info to compare but I am not sure what the phase # over the target will tell me to try.
What, for instance, (in particular), would I see that would tell me to try one frequency over another? Like if the phase number goes up or down over the target will that indicate a lower or higher frequency might be a good choice?
Can you give a scenario or is it theory to be developed by use?
I assume that I would use this info if I were hunting for a particular known VDI target, like if I am just hunting one thing.. ie: buttons, or lead, or silver but not all three. Right?
I have a new/old churchyard to hunt. Going there today.
Thanks again,
Julien
I'm not always best at wording, sorry. It was more of a case if you have a target that you don't know how it responds to a certain frequency, this might help. Say you want to find out what frequency is best for a nickel. If you run it at 22.5kHz, it should hit stronger than if you are running 2.5kHz. So, you can find out which frequency is hitting best for the targets you are hunting for. Remove the ground from your equation first - I think that will help. I haven't tried this myself (I've looked at target VDI with the ground removed, but not at the response of the signal strength for each frequency, so I can't guarantee that it will do what I think it will), but I think it could be useful maybe.
In 3 frequency modes, the phase VDI is normalized.
In single frequency mode, if you have normalized disabled, the phase VDI will be unnormalized too (I will double check Monday, but I'm pretty sure this is true). You can test this to make sure by looking at the VDI of a target with normalized checked and then unchecked, but I am really sure this is the case.
In all modes the phase angles are NOT normalized.
In single frequency mode, if you have normalized disabled, the phase VDI will be unnormalized too (I will double check Monday, but I'm pretty sure this is true). You can test this to make sure by looking at the VDI of a target with normalized checked and then unchecked, but I am really sure this is the case.
In all modes the phase angles are NOT normalized.