30 months FEDERAL Pen (Tom, a TVA case for you)

[KinTN]

Apologies to the board about posting with an offsite link. I appreciate the tolerance of the mods. You guys run a great board.
I also apologize to those that lost their comments when the thread got deleted. Hope you post them again.

Lets try that again:


TVA is serious when they say no metal detecting on "THEIR" land and water. This is an especially egregious case covering a 4 year span with multiple violations. Local news says that they used metal detectors, hunted prohibited parks + TVA lands and waters and then sold their finds. The last local TVA case I am aware of was a few years ago when they caught a couple of guys metal detecting on a drawndown Douglas Lake with arrowheads in their possession. They took their detectors and fined them iirc.

Remember when you get caught by TVA it goes to Federal (insert Office Space reference here) Court/Pen. If you dont like the way it is, work to change it.
Stay legal, Stay Safe, Have Fun.

http://www.wdef.com/news/story/Men-Get-Jail-Term-For-Digging-Up-Civil-War/hGD8jydVg0uD3nYfogozpA.cspx

Here's the text in case the link dies (the short video there is worth watching too imo):


"Chattanooga (WDEF) - Federal Judge Curtis Collier sentenced two East Tennessee men to jail time for digging up Civil War artifacts.

39-year old Kenneth Fagin, Jr. from South Pittsburg and 61-year old Terry Tate from Manchester will serve 30 months in federal prison.

They were convicted of illegal archaeological excavation on federal property.

They pleaded guilty to the charges in February.

The case covers four years of digs.

The pair excavated artifacts from the bottom of Fort McCook at Battle Creek.

The site is on TVA property next to the South Pittsburg Municipal Park.

The got artillery rounds called Hotchkiss shells.

In 2009, Fagin and Tate dug up Civil War era U-rails from public lands in Bridgeport, Alabama.

Then in 2010, they transported and delivered a counterfeit “Sherman Bow-Tie” that was made from Civil War era U-rails that they excavated from public lands in Bridgeport, Alabama.

Fagin also excavated Civil War era artifacts from Shiloh National Military Park, including a .57 cal. three-ring rifle bullet; five fired three-ring rifle bullets and Schenkl artillery shell fragments."

 

[Elton]

Sounds like they were sneaking in where they knew was off limits. 30 months is a long time though..But it could have been longer I would imagine..

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ah, a case of a "ticket" (jail, confiscation, etc...) for metal detecting. Thanx for posting that ! Whenever I post my "challenge" (to cite any such examples), I am always mindful that , somewhere, somehow, no doubt: Yes, someone will come up with an example. So I am sometimes careful to add the following criteria:

A) barring someone sneaking obvious historic senstive monuments

B) barring someone who could easily have known better.

C) barring someone who can't take a warning, being obnoxious, etc....

It sounds like those in your example failed on all 3 counts. Thus not some sort of "innocuous sand box" or park or school or beach type of thing (that we are told to fear being "arrested", "jailed" etc... for). And yes, I too know of a few crazy stories. Will post them in the next post:

 

[Tom_in_CA]

#1 I knew a guy who was md'ing a private farmer's furroughed ag. field, that bordered a state park . A historically themed state park. When he was done working the private land field, he walked back to his car ACROSS a vacant lot, on his way back to his car. A state ranger stopped him, and hassled him for having a detector. The guy explained that he'd just come from the field further off in the distance, and his machine was off. And that he was merely walking back to his car. In fact, he didn't even know that the vacant lot he was walking across, was part of the state property. Turns out it had only recently been added to the acreage of the state park there (but a moot point, since he wasn't md'ing anyhow).

The ranger wouldn't listen, and wrote him a ticket. A few weeks later, the md'r got his ticket in the mail. A whopping $150. Woohoo. He wanted to fight it (since it was utterly true that he wasn't md'ing), but the cost of the ticket wasn't worth his time. D/t his home was about 3 hrs. away from this location.. It was easier to simply pay the $150, and forget about it.

#2: Another friend of mine was detecting a historically themed federal area (old military establishment near or in SF, CA) . When he was preparing to leave, an MP burst out of hiding, and read him the riot act. Turns out the lady-cop had been watching him for over an hour ?? He tried the song and dance of "I didn't know" and "it's not posted", etc.... But she didn't care. She gave him and ticket. He too fully intended to fight it. But when it came in the mail, it was less than $200.00 And like #1, just wasn't worth the hassle to fight.

But I guess my point is: do stories like these (and yours) mean that "Therefore, we should all grovel at city halls everywhere we come to ?". Or "arrests, jail, confiscations, etc.... " are imminent at every turn ? Or do they mean that "flukes exist" ? In the same way that, no doubt, there's stories of a motorist pulled over, roughed up, jailed and fined, for nothing but a tail-light out (by an over-zealous cop). Do you fear driving from then-on-out? Or do you chalk it up to a fluke ?

But in any case, back to your story: IMHO, those guys could/should have known better, and were of the caliber of "night-sneaking-historic-monuments". A far cry from the innocuous locations I render my challenge for.

 

[KinTN]

I'm sorry I don't have a link for the Douglas Lake fine/confiscation, but I guess those guys didn't meet your #2 anyway (first time I've seen you post those btw- they do a lot to clarify what you have been saying).
.
I think we may have found some common ground with those 3 caveats, Tom. I also think that most cops (even TVA cops) wont come down hard on a person whose only 'crime' is that they are fairly new to MDing and didn't know better. Honest mistakes and a willingness to improve one's minor illegal behavior goes a long way with LE. The only bone I've ever had with you is that I would never encourage anyone to knowingly break the law. The right to metal detect just isnt the same as the right to vote or other civil rights issues where civil disobedience is a viable course of action- I just dont see America marching by the thousands for metal detecting rights. I tell people to learn the law and when appropriate to challenge LE to cite the law that prohibits MDing. If they cant, then have at it. But it a law exists, the best course of action isn't making some martyr of one's self, but to legally fight to change the law.
(now with all that said, I also recognize that CA is different from TN. locales differ and what is the right course of action in one place may not be appropriate for another. here in TN, stopping by local PDs and asking them to cite laws has resulted in positive encounters 100% of the time for me. Friendly works ime).

I would have fought those 2 tickets you cite even they if were just $10, but I am somewhat more stubborn and combative than most folks when I am Right. I suspect you would have fought them too.

 

[adamBomb]

I wonder how much tax $$$ was spent prosecuting these guys and will be spent sending them to prison. Sounds like something that they should have been fined for, sent to comm service, etc. Not even sure why you needed a court case for it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

my only "bee in my bonnett", is the mindset that we should all inquire (or ask permission, or check, etc...) at various entities we arrive at. Ie.: city hall, ranger kiosk, or the police or sherriff, etc.... Because it risks a "no", when perhaps no such law really exists that says such a thing. And instead they can be morphing something like "alter", "disturb", "remove", "take", etc.... to think that merits their "safe answer". And sadly, such things have happened in places where, prior to that, detecting had never been an issue. So I advocate for looking the laws/rules up for oneself. If you see nothing that says "no md'ing", then presto, it's not dis-allowed.

But when I post that sort of advice, persons have often thrown out the supposed imminent fear of "arrest", "jail", "tickets", etc.... as the risk of not having asked a live person "can I?". So I began to wonder "just how frequent is this?" Is this really something we should all be afraid of, thus going to grovel for permission everywhere ?

So it's not that I advocate breaking laws, I just caution on asking live persons. And even if you're very careful to phrase it in the form of "Are there any laws that prohibit detecting?" (so as to put the burden of proof on them to CITE such a law/rule, if it really existed): That too can back-fire. Lots of examples (some quite humorous, yet sad) on where that led.

Anyhow, yes: true example do no doubt exist, of someone being roughed up for a truly innocuous place, that they simply had no idea of. Heck, I'll even go further and say that I bet there's probably examples of "jail, tickets, fines" EVEN IF NO SPECIFIC LAW/RULE said "no md'ing". The ticket could be for "alter" (because they thought you were going to leave a mark). Or "harvest/remove" (because you were about to take that penny home). But seriously now, how common is that ? I would write off such examples as flukes, not norms. In the same way some driver's could get "roughed up" for nothing but a tail-light out by an over-zealous cop, does not cause you to a) stop driving, or b) ask the cops permission to drive.

 

[SeabeeRon]

In the TVA example those guys deserved to go to jail!!

 

[KinTN]

Also, Tom I should say that the type of incident that you are requiring documentation for is not the kind of thing you will find in the media. How many places broadcast/print/post every minor ticket that is given out in their area. Its only the very notable incidents that are going to make the news; the ones you so casually dismiss as outliers. How Convenient.
TVA has a policy, They enforce it- from just issuing tickets to federal pen. Call them if you want and ask. It has the force of law. I advise folks to follow the law and to join the local detectorists in changing that law if they don't like it. Nighthawking or going off on rants and generally acting like a 5 year old just doesn't work when dealing with .gov.

As you no longer advise folks to break the law, I have no disagreement with you. Your opinions on even discussing metal detecting with authorities are valid points for discussion. One size/method rarely fits all situations. When you know you are in the right, you don't need to ask anyone.


I will point out that I have been challenged by a local gov employee at a nearby city site. Fairly aggressively. I stood my ground and dropped the name of the PD chief that I had spoken with and that took all the air out of that little hitler's sails. I later found out that this guy has run a half dozen other detectorists off who didn't know any better. When you know you are in the right, you don't need to ask anyone

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ok, thanx.

 

[BootyHunter]

TVA is a complete waste of tax dollars. It's a quasi-government agency and thus the federal court. "Federal" is the problem here, over reaching the 10 miles of land it was "supposed" to been confined to when it was created by our forefathers. Not that these two were angels, they were not, but how is leaving artifacts on the bottom of a lake to deteriorate and disappear from history "protecting" them? Much better to recover and display them and have them appreciated. EVERYONE that swings a metal detector needs to research ARPA (Archeological Resources Protection Act) and read what it says, if they hornswaggle you into that spiders web, you are in deep doo doo to be sure. We all as detectorists, but more importantly as free Americans need to stand up and take our country back. These "Acts", notice they are Acts not laws, because the Federal Government can't really enforce Laws outside of that 10 mile square plot of land that they do have jurisdiction over. People are sheep, have been dumbed down on purpose and if everyone knew what was really going on there would be a 2nd American Revolution. IRS- constitutionally illegal, "Federal" reserve- not federal, it's a central bank. This worm hole just goes deeper and deeper. For anyone interested read the Act of 1871, that's when this country was sold out to European central banks, and we all became debt slaves and began being issued slave numbers "SSN", and having to have a ""passport" to visit other countries because we were no longer soverign citizens. Read, research, learn for yourselves. It's scary, and depressing but very true.

 

[hershey1]

Metal detecting swimming areas, unoccupied campsites and launching ramps are not the problem. Digging Indian artifacts and civil war sites is what started the problems. Knowing the TVA security is a plus if you go by the rules. HH

 

[KinTN]

-- moved topic --

 

[wayne_etc]

I work in Bridgeport often. TVA don't play.


w

 

[BootyHunter]

Doesn't matter if you "know" them or not, using a metal detector on ANY TVA property is now banned, and it will be an ARPA charge. If its the good ol' boy system there and just cause you're buddies or relatives with the TVA staff and they let you detect, just wait til some poor sap that they ran off from there catches you detecting, he will be on the phone with someone at TVA and eventually your buddy will be out of a job and you'll be in deep crap. It won't work letting some detect but not others, too many people in the hobby now and it will get noticed.

 

[chuck ky]

ARPA would only come into the picture if the finds are over 50 yrs. old and if you have a good lawyer that should be 50 yrs. back from when the law was written. if you're hunting the beach for recent losses with permission you should be fine. as for the tva employee losing his job I think his union should be able to stp that.

 

[BootyHunter]

ARPA would only come into the picture if the finds are over 50 yrs. old and if you have a good lawyer that should be 50 yrs. back from when the law was written. if you're hunting the beach for recent losses with permission you should be fine. as for the tva employee losing his job I think his union should be able to stp that.

Nope, even digging or picking anything up will get you charged with ARPA violation on TVA property. Yes the law says the item must be older than 50 years and "projectiles" are "supposed" to be excluded, but TVA will charge you anyway just for digging, then they will put the "site repair" fees in there with the cost of the archeologists time to survey the "damage". It will be a federal judge hearing the case in federal court, you vs the federal government and TVA, so, good luck with that. Even if you beat the charges, you still have the lawyer fees and court costs plus your time. So hey, if you think it's worth it to take that risk, go for it, but I have 1st hand knowledge of 3 guys charged with ARPA by the TVA and they weren't even on TVA Property by TVA's own maps. But that didn't stop them from charging them and dragging them to federal court 1.5 hrs away. So they beat the charges, but spent $1500 in lawyer fees and another couple hundred in gas and time. Definitely not worth the risk to me. Screw the TVA, anything to be found there is not worth the hassle.

 

[chuck ky]

if you have permission from a TVA employee TVA can't charge you for metal detecting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

chuck, you are a breath of fresh air. But alas, your efforts are probably in vain for the "skittish" crowd. All it takes is for one "scary story" (arrest, or "no" someone received, or ticket, etc...) to get into a skittish person's craw. Then in their mind "everyone hates md'rs" and "tickets and arrests are imminent", blah blah blah.

Kind of like fears of shark attacks: Even though shark attacks are extremely rare, and even though thousands of people per day swim in the ocean without incident, yet ....... lots of people fear sharks as a very-real potential certainty. Even though they can only point to remote isolated fluke incidents.

I'm not saying to "throw caution to the wind", but ..... just saying ..... sometimes I think md'rs make things more difficult than they actually are.

 

[chuck ky]

state parks are off limits in Kentucky but campers are allowed to hunt the swimming lakes after swimming season with permission from the park keeper. I've always heard its the same with the TVA.