Combined Tone Profile FE Line

[Bryan V]

I got a sick feeling in my gut today when I realized I have probably missed a lot of coins over the last year +
because of my program I usually run.
I have been real happy with my CTX and am on track for around 100 silvers this year but I always wondered why
I found very few coins with iron in the hole with them.
I was trying out a new program I made when I got a nice repeatable 12-39 so I'm thinking wheat penny.
I cross check the signal with my usual pattern I hunt with and its nothing but nulls and iron tones. Not even a squeak.
I dig it and I find a bent nail. I was confused at this point because I had gotten such a good signal in my new program.
I put the plug back, re-scan and 12-39!
I open it back up and pull out a nice silver pin and a second nail below it.
Not long after that I dig a 46 Washinton with a thin piece of rusty tin over it and half hour later pull a Merc with a small chunk of iron in the hole too!
Both of my programs are almost identical and mostly open with the only difference being on my new program
I dropped the FE Tone line in combined mode to the 32 Line.
My old program I have it set at 24. I thought that was plenty low but with the nails in the hole it didn't pick up the silver pin.
I was running Ferrous Coin in both programs by the way.
The signal difference between the two programs were night and day.
Am I the last one to realize this or was this just a fluke?

 

[Jason in Enid]

24 is fine for your dividing line. Going down to 32 puts you directly into accepting iron. If you run that way you will likely find a FEW more old coins but you will also dig much, much, much more iron.

 

[utahshovelhead]

Do you recall if you got any higher pitch at all over these targets with the setting at 24? or if you had a double VDI showing two targets or a smeared target? Did it give you any clue even though not clear.? I tend to get an indication just not a clear easy target indication but if I get the small high tone I keep checking and sweeping at different angles and open the screen with the second profile. 32 seems too low for me but Ill give it a try next time for the fun of it.

 

[Bryan V]

Do you recall if you got any higher pitch at all over these targets with the setting at 24? or if you had a double VDI showing two targets or a smeared target? Did it give you any clue even though not clear.? I tend to get an indication just not a clear easy target indication but if I get the small high tone I keep checking and sweeping at different angles and open the screen with the second profile. 32 seems too low for me but Ill give it a try next time for the fun of it.

No high tone at all in my normal mode. Not even a chirp or false. I would have just walked past it.
Like you I investigate the high tones.
I don't remember what the screen was doing besides the numbers.
I have kind of lost faith in the target trace system, at least for the deeper stuff.
I am mostly a tone hunter.

I am going to try my new mode again today at a park to see how it works.
Yesterday's hunt was at a tare down which was a crazy mess.

 

[Fletch88]

At 100 silvers for the year I would say you have had a stellar year! Just think now you still have all the sites you've found these coins in to re-hunt with lower iron reject!

 

[Bryan V]

At 100 silvers for the year I would say you have had a stellar year! Just think now you still have all the sites you've found these coins in to re-hunt with lower iron reject!

After hunting a few more hours with the new program I did find three more wheat pennies that were masked by my old program.
2 of them had nails in the hole whith them and the third had some kind of iron in the ground I couldn't find.
The lower iron reject setting causes a lot more falsing so I'm not sure it's worth running full time.
I need to take some time and play with that FE line and see how far I can bring it up to quiet it down a bit without loosing the coin signal.
There must be a happy medium somewhere between the FE 24 and 32 line.

I think I have maybe relied on the Combined Tone profile too much since I like to hunt with a mostly open screen.
I'm going to set up a 50 CO Program to cross check iffy signals.
Bryan

 

[JJ]

Bryan, help me out, I'm a little confused about what you are doing. From my understanding, moving the line of your iron bin isn't a form of discrimination and should only change which bin a target lands in. So I really don't understand how you would lose a target based on the boundies of your bins, especially with an open (zero disc) screen. I'm sure I am missing something obvious here, help me see the light on this one. Thanks, JJ

 

[Bryan V]

Bryan, help me out, I'm a little confused about what you are doing. From my understanding, moving the line of your iron bin isn't a form of discrimination and should only change which bin a target lands in. So I really don't understand how you would lose a target based on the boundies of your bins, especially with an open (zero disc) screen. I'm sure I am missing something obvious here, help me see the light on this one. Thanks, JJ

Your not missing anything. That's why I was confused too. Something is going on in Combined mode that masks coins in iron if the tone line is too high.
It doesn't make sense on paper but I have witnessed it with my own ears..
I was hoping someone else had experienced this and could explain it so I won't think I'm going nuts.
I discovered it by accident while cross checking signals.

 

[JJ]

I completely understand now, I will be sure to make these adjustments and see if I notice the difference on my next hunt. Thanks again, JJ

 

[Digger]

I was trying out a new program I made when I got a nice repeatable 12-39 so I'm thinking wheat penny.
I cross check the signal with my usual pattern I hunt with and its nothing but nulls and iron tones. Not even a squeak.
I dig it and I find a bent nail. I was confused at this point because I had gotten such a good signal in my new program.
I put the plug back, re-scan and 12-39!
I open it back up and pull out a nice silver pin and a second nail below it.
Not long after that I dig a 46 Washinton with a thin piece of rusty tin over it and half hour later pull a Merc with a small chunk of iron in the hole too!
Both of my programs are almost identical and mostly open with the only difference being on my new program
I dropped the FE Tone line in combined mode to the 32 Line.

I don't doubt what you're saying.....but I don't see how changing the bin size on Combined audio would change the ability to detect a viable target. It will change the audio tone produced. But it shouldn't affect any discrimination characteristics. Based on what you said, I would add that I have found many targets that would produce a tone sweeping one way, but wouldn't produce an audio response when cross checking. If I looked at the display, however, I could see both targets on the screen, simultaneously. Working the coil around the spot allowed me to regain the audio response, and lock in on the good target. When you are hunting by ear, especially in Fe/Coin, the audio tone doesn't always provide the same amount of information as the smart screen will.

With that said, if you continue to get the same results you posted, I would lean more toward it having something to do with either your sweep speed or your Ferrous Coin target separation. Ferrous Coin wasn't designed to be used in areas with higher levels of mineralization. And in FE/Coin, when two or more targets are under the coil at the same time and they are both in the "accepted" range of discrimination (like when you are using a mostly open screen), the smart screen is far more accurate than deciphering distinct audio tones. If you have lots of iron targets in the ground, I would probably switch over to High Trash, which will allow you to sweep more quickly and still identify weak accepted target signals amongst rejected targets. The beauty of the CTX High Trash setting is that it will identify those targets, even if the rejected target signals are stronger. Note that your level of discrimination will have a huge impact on the number of audio tones you will get. Especially in trashy areas. So don't be afraid to scan some of those nails and set their TID numbers to reject. JMHO HH Randy

 

[Bryan V]

I was trying out a new program I made when I got a nice repeatable 12-39 so I'm thinking wheat penny.
I cross check the signal with my usual pattern I hunt with and its nothing but nulls and iron tones. Not even a squeak.
I dig it and I find a bent nail. I was confused at this point because I had gotten such a good signal in my new program.
I put the plug back, re-scan and 12-39!
I open it back up and pull out a nice silver pin and a second nail below it.
Not long after that I dig a 46 Washinton with a thin piece of rusty tin over it and half hour later pull a Merc with a small chunk of iron in the hole too!
Both of my programs are almost identical and mostly open with the only difference being on my new program
I dropped the FE Tone line in combined mode to the 32 Line.

I don't doubt what you're saying.....but I don't see how changing the bin size on Combined audio would change the ability to detect a viable target. It will change the audio tone produced. But it shouldn't affect any discrimination characteristics. Based on what you said, I would add that I have found many targets that would produce a tone sweeping one way, but wouldn't produce an audio response when cross checking. If I looked at the display, however, I could see both targets on the screen, simultaneously. Working the coil around the spot allowed me to regain the audio response, and lock in on the good target. When you are hunting by ear, especially in Fe/Coin, the audio tone doesn't always provide the same amount of information as the smart screen will.

With that said, if you continue to get the same results you posted, I would lean more toward it having something to do with either your sweep speed or your Ferrous Coin target separation. Ferrous Coin wasn't designed to be used in areas with higher levels of mineralization. And in FE/Coin, when two or more targets are under the coil at the same time and they are both in the "accepted" range of discrimination (like when you are using a mostly open screen), the smart screen is far more accurate than deciphering distinct audio tones. If you have lots of iron targets in the ground, I would probably switch over to High Trash, which will allow you to sweep more quickly and still identify weak accepted target signals amongst rejected targets. The beauty of the CTX High Trash setting is that it will identify those targets, even if the rejected target signals are stronger. Note that your level of discrimination will have a huge impact on the number of audio tones you will get. Especially in trashy areas. So don't be afraid to scan some of those nails and set their TID numbers to reject. JMHO HH Randy

Thanks for your detailed reply Randy. A couple of things stand out.
I have almost exclusively run Ferrous Coin since I got my CTX with a little Ground Coin thrown in lately.
I have very high mineralization and I tend to push my detector with high manual sensitivity to gain depth.
Some of the areas I hunt recommend single digit sensitivity and I usually push it to 23 which makes for a noisy detector.

I need to work on my screen target information skills more. I just got tired of the nail falsing also giving me false screen information so I have learned to trust my ear rather than eyes when detecting.
Sounds like I have some pattern editing to do and I also have to get over my fear of adding discrimination.
I'll put the Ferrous coin away for a bit or just use it as my secondary cross check pattern.
I knew Ferrous Coin was not supposed to be used in high mineralization but it always seemed to be the most accurate
Target Seperation mode for me. I guess I didn't know what I didn't know.

One thing is for sure. I have found very few coins with nails in the hole since I started using the CTX. Only a hand full in almost a year and half.
In the last 2 hunts I have found 6 with the lower FE Tone line. Something is definitely going on and I bet it's the FE Coin/ High mineralization combo.
Thanks again.
Bryan

 

[bklein]

I'm confused. If he runs High Trash, the "trash" would be defined by discrimination and there isn't any because he is runnung open screen. So I would think that detection would be the same. But maybe it is but audio is modified to amplify small target responses (even small iron ones). If you switch to ferrous/coin or ground coin, one of these (I don't remember which) tends to change the linearity scale to push more iron up to the 12 level - in ID. For example bobbypins become audible. This then may then help push the audio responses above the iron sound if your iron audio threshold remains low. But this sounds the opposite of what is happening! So maybe the fault is that the CTX needs two audio circuits that can run simultaneously. With just one the highest amplitude prevails - iron- and if it is discriminated audio dies even if a smaller coin signal is there somewhere. With high trash mode though maybe with coil manipulation or a smaller coil you catch the coin ID and it sounds. Sorry for rambling on...

 

[jas415]

I am totally confused! In the Houston area the suggested sense never goes below maybe 14-16, and only when in a crushed iron ore driveway, manual at 25 to 30, 6" coil, zero discrimination, ferrous coin, 4 tone combined, and dig many many coins with iron on them, or near them. Got a '09 wheat with an iron nut rusted to the face of it, still read 12-40 with a great tone and target. In the original post I thought it was an issue where the 'tones' were set too low!

 

[Digger]

It can be confusing........you are correct in that target ID's bins that have been set to accept will not be rejected, regardless of the separation mode. My suggestion to Bryan was to increase the discrimination in order to take advantage of the improved TID stability when using High Trash in mineralized ground. If High Trash doesn't resolve his problems, I would likely switch over to Ground/Coin separation.

The situation I've found when using Fe/Coin in areas with high levels of mineralization is that the signal processing implemented in FE/Coin (which were designed for use in areas with low levels of mineralization) is not as effective at maximizing the CTX performance as changing the Separation mode to either High Trash or Ground/Coin.

The reasons I recommend trying High Trash first is because one, I don't know how mineralized his ground is. Figure we should start with the better option first. If that don't work, he can try Ground/Coin. And two, when someone mentions that they hit a target one direction, but not when crossing over it a different direction, I suspect they are sweeping their coil too quickly. High Trash is the best separation mode for those of us who sweep too fast. JMHO HH Randy

 

[Bryan V]

I obviously didn't explain what happened to me very well so I will try again.
I usually run a combined program in Ferrous Coin with very little discrimination.
Just the 35 line and a few squares in the bottom right corner rejected.
I have been running the FE Tone bin line at 24.
I set up a second program just like it to use at more relic type sites with the only difference being that I dropped the FE tone bin to the 32 line to alert me to possible relic type targets.
That day I was hunting an old house tare down so I Thought I would try out my new "relic program".
I came across a perfect, solid 12-39 signal. It was a no brainier signal from all directions.
I'm surprised I even cross checked the signal, but I did. When I switched to my old program the signal disappeared from all directions. Not a chirp or blip. Nothing but low tones..
It was a strange moment because the signal was so good and solid in my new mode. No delays in audio and easy to pinpoint.
The signal did not act like a false in any way.
I dug a plug and pulled a nail out of the hole. I put the plug back confused as hell and re-scanned the hole with the new program and got a perfect 12-39 signal again.
I reopened the hole and pulled a nice silver pin out of the hole along with a second nail.
After that I pulled two more keepers with iron in the hole which is very rare for me.
Next day 3 more old coins with iron in the hole using my new program with the lower FE tone bin line.
Very unusual for me. I rarely find coins with nails in the hole with them. I have always been surprised how many people claim to find coins with iron in the hole with the CTX.
Something is going on and I think Randy is on to something..
I am going to make some changes and see how it goes.

After reading Randy's post I can see I'm probably guilty of few poor detecting techniques.
I have been using Ferrous Coin in highly minerized ground, I probably swing too fast and have not given the other Target Seperation modes enough swing time.
Hope this clears things up a bit. I am aware that lowering the tone bin from FE 24 to 32 should not have affected a 12-39 silver pin signal, but it did, and it happened 5 times after that. Not all of the 5 coins lost full high tone audio but the signal was degraded so badly that they probably would have been missed.
Bryan

 

[JJ]

I get the point you are trying make Bryan. You're right that it doesn't make sense on paper so I won't try to bounce any logical explanation off of you. I do plan on building a Bryan V iron program with your setting to cross check targets out of pure curiosity. Another thing that enters my mind is that traditionally, Minelabs are like snowflakes in that no two are alike. Quality control hasn't always been the best resulting in many of the same machines being their own individual animal. Not saying this is the case here but I wouldn't rule it out. JJ

 

[Digger]

I hear what you're saying. I just haven't been able to figure out any logical or "technical" reason that changing the FE line of the combined audio would provide the varying results you encountered.

Just thinking out loud here......and asking all of you other CTX3030 users to feel free and chime in.......the FE/Conductive value of a target doesn't change when you alter your programs. The way we analyze them or interpret them might. But the FE and CO values of the target remain the same. In Bryan's scenario, since the audio response did change, something must have either changed in the manner the target signal was analyzed, or in the manner he was able to hear it.

In Bryan's examples.....when the bottom and top bins of the combined audio tone were separated at ferrous line 24, his detector had a degraded audio response on targets with a TID of 12 - 39. Not a chirp or blip. Nothing but low tones. We know that, with the horizontal line set at 24, a target with a ferrous value of 24 or less should be "sent" to one of the bins above the combined audio horizontal line. And when a target is "sent" above that horizontal combined audio line, the tone you hear will be based on the conductive value. Which conductive tone you hear will depend on how you set the audio tones in each of the conductive bins. For the sake of argument, lets say Bryan had his CTX set up to send a 39 conductive to one of the upper bins on the right hand side. In that regard, unless something interfered with the target analysis or the audio response, that target should have been sent to a bin above the line and to the right side. And, with the minimal amount of discrimination he was using,(just the FE 35 line and a few boxes in the lower right hand corner of the screen) he should have heard the tone associated with that bin. Based on his description, I'd suggest that would be a high tone. For reasons yet unknown, when he changed his combined audio horizontal line to FE 32, he got a strong audio high tone on the targets with a TID of 12-39. That makes sense because when you detect a target with an FE value smaller than where you have the combined audio horizontal line, the target should go to one of the bins above that line.

So why does his audio response "go away" when he uses Combined audio with the horizontal line at 24......but is loud and clear when he moves that horizontal line on Combined audio to 32? Since he was running with minimal discrimination, the CTX3030 should not have discriminated out the target with a TID of 12-39, regardless of whether the combined audio horizontal line was set at 24 or 32. In both situations, the target shouldould have been sent to one of the conductive bins for the audio response associated with that bin. (you will get a tone for that target, as long as the bin don't include rejected target ID #s for the specific target). Since the target FE/CO value did not change, and since the only thing changed was the horizontal line in his Combined audio settings, it seems to me that either the target signal was altered, or the audio response was masked, when he used the 24 line.

Bryan....could you check your two programs to make sure ALL of the other settings are the same, except for the placement of the Combined audio horizontal line? Specifically check for discrimination blocks, Target Separation mode, parameters of each bin and the tones assigned to each bin. I'm wondering if there could be something different between the programs that could be altering the audio response of your target, not necessarily the ability of the CTX to detect the target. Without knowing what appeared on the screen with each program, I hesitate to venture a guess. Another suggestion I would have would be to eliminate ALL of the discrimination and see if you get the same results in both of your programs with all targets accepted. Hang in there, there are folks on this forum who help us figure this out. HH Randy

 

[sube]

Randy I know what is happening ,Try this test -0- (- meaning nail 0 meaning coin - meaning nail ) Put the nails and coin on the ground 1/8 inch apart ferrous line set to 32 I prefer 35 but just put it at 32 okay ,Now disc out the nails31 to 35 so we don't hear the nails . You will get a high tone okay,
Now set the ferrous line to 24 you well get a low tone no-dig signal .

The reason being is if you switch to high trash and run the same pattern except your in high trash and in conduct 4 tone now that coin with the nails well id at 27.45 to 29.45 which is the true spot where the coin well read on the screen. You have to have the 31 to 35 line disc out otherwise you well get 3 high tones

If you sweep the nails and coin east to west your id well be in the 27.45 to 29.45 area , if you sweep north and south it well build a trace at 12.39 to 12.41 because it's trying to push it to the 12 line . This is ferrous coin combine

Know in 4 tone conduct east west will try to build at the 27.45 to 29.45 area north south id well lock on in this area with a cursor .

I was using 3 inch nails size matters and well change where the cursor lands .

i:m trying to make a video on this and I'm half done .

I have been running conduct and combine at the same time you can see in my post where I was going back and forth where i said combine does not work as it suppose to but it does you have to disc the nails out other wise you well get low high low where as the nails disc out you well only get the high .

But the ferrous line has to be set below the 29 line otherwise you well get low low low because that coin comes in at 27.45 to 29.45 which is it's true id mixed with nails .

Now a nickel will up average with the iron it well read 27.30 to 29.35 in high trash same as ferrous coin combine but when swept north south ferrous coin well try to build a curser on the 12 line or above where as high trash combine will build it at 27.30 to 29.40 .

Randy the fe and co # change when the target is mixed with iron because there so close together it is looking at them as one. As far as the target being degraded it really is not because a coin with nails is giving you it's true fe and co #s sube

 

[Digger]

Thanks for the info Sube. I'll give your ideas a shot. I'll also plan run them with some discrimination, to see if nulling out the nails (instead of a low tone) provides an audio signal on the coin. I know the design characteristics of the DD coils do provide varying information on mixed targets, depending on the direction of the sweep. That is why I asked Bryan to slow down his sweep and pass over the targets in various directions. Not sure my moderate soil will provide the same FE/Coin results as Bryan, in his highly mineralized soil. But the more information we can share on this forum, the better we will all be at maximizing our CTX 3030's. Thanks again. HH Randy

 

[sube]

Randy that little bit of disc sure makes that high stick out I got sick of listening to all those nails as far as sweep speed the tighter to the nails the slower you have to swing but with the test I described you don't have to go that slow just a 3 to 4 second sweep per pass . sube