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The Legend is here!

Tahts-a-dats-ago

Active member
Why are some people so sure that the Equinox runs in only 2 simultaneous frequencies ? Where is the official information ? I want to see it. Everything else is hearsay.

Two reasons mainly...

1. Tests have proven so. On another forum (DP) look for posts by Carl Moreland (engineer at First Texas) where quite a bit of discussion (on that topic) took place. Carl also has information on his own website (Geotech forums - or something along those lines)

2. Minelab all but said so a few years ago (2018, I think). There is a link, on the above mentioned forum, to the document from Minelab. Something about more than 3 frequencies (transmitted/received at the same time) being detrimental and how better results were obtained with fewer (2) frequencies transmitted/received at the same time.

To be fair it is all well above my ability to fully comprehend.

My understanding is that Minelab has never actually claimed their machines could transmit/receive more than two frequencies at the same time. Minelab did market machines as having a big number of frequencies that could be transmitted, but that isn't the same thing as transmitting and receiving said number of frequencies (at the same time). It seems that enthusiastic marketing led to assumptions that aren't claimed, or true. Of course Minelab isn't the only company that is guilty of being a bit over zealous in their marketing, as most companies have issued statements that aren't saying what they might be portrayed as saying. The detecting public seems to equate many frequencies (at one time) to "horsepower." Physics apparently says something else.

I'm not sure why some people get upset when they're informed that the Equinox transmits/receives two frequencies at a time. It's not as though that information makes the Equinox less capable all of a sudden.
 

JCR TX

Active member
This is all interesting as far as it goes but how the the signal is processed and delivered in the audio & TID is what I think is important.
I remember hearing in the interview Garrett's Chief Engineer gave at the introduction of the Apex that in Multi they actually ran additional frequencies not available as single selectable including higher than 20 kHz. Of course he wouldn't elaborate. Why should he? That's proprietary information.
 

autopilot42

Active member
I believe the old cz platform is 5 and 15khz. I could be very wrong. I don't own one but they are true and tried from all I have read. IF I get a chance I will buy one. I think everyone wants the bomb but it doesn't exist in the realm of frequency that we have and how it interacts with the ground. I am not sure but they are working off of harmonics and that is what makes them work in a salt water environment. The machine can ignore one frequency and except the other. Meaning you can ground balance out the salt which is conductive but still get a response from the harmonic response of the second frequency. I am probably wrong but I gave it a shot.
 

kajunman

Active member
Two reasons mainly...

1. Tests have proven so. On another forum (DP) look for posts by Carl Moreland (engineer at First Texas) where quite a bit of discussion (on that topic) took place. Carl also has information on his own website (Geotech forums - or something along those lines)

2. Minelab all but said so a few years ago (2018, I think). There is a link, on the above mentioned forum, to the document from Minelab. Something about more than 3 frequencies (transmitted/received at the same time) being detrimental and how better results were obtained with fewer (2) frequencies transmitted/received at the same time.

To be fair it is all well above my ability to fully comprehend.

My understanding is that Minelab has never actually claimed their machines could transmit/receive more than two frequencies at the same time. Minelab did market machines as having a big number of frequencies that could be transmitted, but that isn't the same thing as transmitting and receiving said number of frequencies (at the same time). It seems that enthusiastic marketing led to assumptions that aren't claimed, or true. Of course Minelab isn't the only company that is guilty of being a bit over zealous in their marketing, as most companies have issued statements that aren't saying what they might be portrayed as saying. The detecting public seems to equate many frequencies (at one time) to "horsepower." Physics apparently says something else.

I'm not sure why some people get upset when they're informed that the Equinox transmits/receives two frequencies at a time. It's not as though that information makes the Equinox less capable all of a sudden.

Me either but those fancy pics in the brochure look good. In any given mode, park, field, beach, the two frequencies are weighted depending on which mode is selected. Also, the two frequencies aren't an exact number representation of the 5 listed frequencies. Example, instead of frequencies 5 and 15 it could be 15.8 and 5.4 as the tx and rx signals.

But yep, people get all defensive when told the Nox is using two frequencies in SMF mode.
 

kajunman

Active member
I lack the special knowledge required to operate and/or interpret the results of such a test on an oscilloscope. What I can do is read, and nowhere in the literature or owners manual does it reference the number of frequencies being used simultaneously With either the Nox or the Legend. But since you appear to have this knowledge and ability, please cite the source of the two frequency data so us troglodytes and Neanderthals can see for ourselves. We shall be forever in your debt for sharing your superior knowledge.
Since you can read, go read detector prospector. You're welcome.
 
This discussion was also happening on one of the Nokta Makro groups on Facebook. I emailed Minelab and XP just to see what they would say. Here are their responses. Please don’t kill the messenger!! 😂 LOL
“Hi Jeffrey,
Thank you for contacting Minelab. In multi-frequency, the detector is running up to 5 frequencies simultaneously based on the mode selected. The frequency range is 5khz to 40 khz.
Minelab does not publish the exact frequencies being run in each mode.
Kind regards;
Martha
Minelab Customer Care”

“Hello

The frequencies used are 49 from 4 to 45kHz (7 mains 4,7,15,21,28,35,45 + 42 shifts) depending the programs
Everything is explained here : https://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/en/gamme/deus-ii-detectors.php
More information will be provided with our user manual which will be published on line in the end of the week (maximum next week)




Best regards“
L'Equipe XP / XP Team
 

dfmike

Well-known member
I'm not sure why some people get upset when they're informed that the Equinox transmits/receives two frequencies at a time. It's not as though that information makes the Equinox less capable all of a sudden.

This discussion was also happening on one of the Nokta Makro groups on Facebook. I emailed Minelab and XP just to see what they would say. Here are their responses. Please don’t kill the messenger!! 😂 LOL
“Hi Jeffrey,
Thank you for contacting Minelab. In multi-frequency, the detector is running up to 5 frequencies simultaneously based on the mode selected. The frequency range is 5khz to 40 khz.
Minelab does not publish the exact frequencies being run in each mode.
Kind regards;
Martha
Minelab Customer Care”

“Hello

The frequencies used are 49 from 4 to 45kHz (7 mains 4,7,15,21,28,35,45 + 42 shifts) depending the programs
Everything is explained here : https://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/en/gamme/deus-ii-detectors.php
More information will be provided with our user manual which will be published on line in the end of the week (maximum next week)




Best regards“
L'Equipe XP / XP Team
Minelab should buy an oscilloscope. They obviously don't know what they are talking about...
They don't hang around detector prospector enough as well me thinks.
 
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#1Leatherneck

Well-known member
I own both the Equinox 800, and the Spectra V3i and that is where I find the Spectra V3i superior. It will list both the search mode, and the pinpoint mode showing the freq. I surmise that the Equinox 800: Just guess! One should be able to purchase an inexpensive freq. counter from any CB shop and obtain the freq. from laying it across the cable allowing it to sample the freq. Likewise Tektronics sells an oscilloscope and it provides the information for you. I personally would never be that concerned about one, or two, or three freq. i.e., I would simply set function, and depend on it. I have never seen anyone have an oscilloscope other than a mechanic, and that was several years ago. Now, the test equipment for a mechanic I have never been aware of any using an oscilloscope.

Leatherneck
 

Tahts-a-dats-ago

Active member
Minelab should buy an oscilloscope. They obviously don't know what they are talking about...
They don't hang around detector prospector enough as well me thinks.

My guess is that Minelab has an oscilloscope. Minelab also has a marketing team that writes copy in a manner that could be taken to mean something that isn't actually said, or true.

There are multiple threads (on the subject of how many frequencies is the Equinox running at the same time) on Detector Prospector. Since I'm not sure it's permissible to link to a few of those threads, I'll just suggest a couple of thread titles so you can search them and read them for yourself.

"Minelab Multi-frequency"
"Is The Day Of A Single Frequency Detector Past ?"

There are several other threads, but those two should get you started.

A few tidbits:

All are quotes from within those two threads. I'll attribute the quotes to the author.

"So you saw only two frequencies for each mode? What method did you use for coupling the signal? Did you take any screen shots?" - author Dubious

The reply to that question:
"Yes. I used a magnetic field probe I designed & built. There are at least 2 threads on Geotech discussing all this, including scope pics." - author Geotech
"Geotech" is Carl Moreland. He is a senior engineer at First Texas, and previous to that he was Senior engineer at Whites. He has filed, and received, several patents with regards to metal detectors. He is indeed a genuine expert in the field, and very well acquainted with the process of how SMF works. He also owns Geotech Forums - where you can read more about his testing and see photographs of the proof (Equinox transmits/receives two frequencies at a time. If you choose to read the suggested threads, you'll also find Carl's comments where he goes into technical detail about how SMF (including the Equinox) works. (You have to register to read the threads on Geotech forum)

And yes, I am absolutely positive that Carl Moreland knows more about the Equinox than the person who reportedly replied to the email.

There's Minelab's own thoughts (from engineers, not the person answering emails). First, the prelude to Minelab's own statement:

"There is no reason to compare items at close frequencies. Comparing 10 khz and 12 khz is a waste of time and processing power. What you want to do is compare the targets and ground at a few widely differing frequencies. That way you see what happens that is different at say 4 khz and 32 kHz. That difference or lack of difference gives you extra data to work with. And as Minelab points out in the article about Multi-IQ the more interesting question is how few frequencies are needed to get useful information. And that seems to boil down to two or three." - snippet of comments written by Steve Herschbach

In another thread Steve Herschbach said the following:

"If you read what Minelab puts out very carefully they state always that modes are choosing and processing frequencies from the ones available, but how many are used at any one time in any one mode is never explicitly stated. It is all carefully worded to let you all make assumptions and fill gaps with what you think is going on, but if you read it carefully it is not always saying what you think it is saying." - Steve Herschbach

Now for Minelab's own statement (cited by Steve Herschbach - who happens to be an avid user of Minelab's machines).

"“How many simultaneous frequencies?” you may ask, wondering if this is a critical parameter. Minelab has been carrying out detailed investigations into this in recent years. Just as you can color in a map with many colors, the minimum number to differentiate between adjacent countries is only 4 – a tough problem for mathematicians to prove, over many years. Similar to the map problem, it’s perhaps not the maximum number of frequencies needed to achieve an optimum result, but the minimum number that is more interesting. When it comes to frequencies in a detector, to cover all target types, how the frequencies are combined AND processed is now more important, with the latest detectors, than how many frequencies, for achieving even better results." - Minelab engineers

There is no shame in the Equinox transmitting/receiving two frequencies at a time. The "magic" behind the Equinox is found in how those two (weighted) frequencies are combined and processed. That is what makes the Equinox so capable; as the Minelab engineers noted.

I still don't understand why some Equinox users find it upsetting to learn that the Equinox transmits/receives two frequencies at a time. Perhaps you'd be willing to explain that?
 

Tahts-a-dats-ago

Active member
I own both the Equinox 800, and the Spectra V3i and that is where I find the Spectra V3i superior. It will list both the search mode, and the pinpoint mode showing the freq. I surmise that the Equinox 800: Just guess! One should be able to purchase an inexpensive freq. counter from any CB shop and obtain the freq. from laying it across the cable allowing it to sample the freq. Likewise Tektronics sells an oscilloscope and it provides the information for you. I personally would never be that concerned about one, or two, or three freq. i.e., I would simply set function, and depend on it. I have never seen anyone have an oscilloscope other than a mechanic, and that was several years ago. Now, the test equipment for a mechanic I have never been aware of any using an oscilloscope.

Leatherneck

I did own/use the V3i and must agree. I found it to be superior (my use, my soil conditions) to the Etrac and the CTX 3030. (I've never used an Equinox, but do own a Vanquish and I find the Apex to be a better machine than the Vanquish). To some degree I kind of wish I had not sold the V3i.
 

jim tn

Well-known member
I did own/use the V3i and must agree. I found it to be superior (my use, my soil conditions) to the Etrac and the CTX 3030. (I've never used an Equinox, but do own a Vanquish and I find the Apex to be a better machine than the Vanquish). To some degree I kind of wish I had not sold the V3i.
Wouldn't mind you going to the comparison forum and giving your thoughts on why you think the Apex is better then the Vanquish. I don't have either and am just curious. Don't know of anyone that actually has/had both. HH jim tn Oh, and it would be fun to share a piece of raisin sour cream pie sometime, too.
 

kajunman

Active member
Minelab should buy an oscilloscope. They obviously don't know what they are talking about...
They don't hang around detector prospector enough as well me thinks.

If this is in doubt, it's a question someone with a multi-trace oscilloscope (which I lack at present) should easily be able to answer.
"And that's what I've done." < Carl Moreland

"Park MF is 7.8k+39k. "< Carl Moreland

"Beach MF is 7.8k+18.5k." < Carl Moreland

Now go tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about because I'm sure all you arm chair engineers are much smarter than Carl.
 

BobOso

Active member
I did own/use the V3i and must agree. I found it to be superior (my use, my soil conditions) to the Etrac and the CTX 3030. (I've never used an Equinox, but do own a Vanquish and I find the Apex to be a better machine than the Vanquish). To some degree I kind of wish I had not sold the V3i.
I've never owned a vanquish, but have owned an equinox and Apex. The Apex I kept for 2 months and always felt as if it was missing targets. then one day while hunting in an old resort, I spotted a penny next to some nails, the Apex did not see the penny. The Apex went back in the truck and I finished the day with the Deus. The next day I laid out several coins on the ground the Apex only saw 1, the equinox and Deus saw all of them, same thing when I put the coins next to iron the Eq and deus saw them all, the Apex saw none. The Apex was sent back to Garrett, they said they fixed it (not). So I sold it. Yes I used all modes, us coins, jewelry etc. My buddies also bought an Apex, they seem to like them, but when we hunt they usually only use the equinox, I can't imagine why, perhaps its because I usually get 4x the amount of coins if they use the apex.

BTY I usually use the Deus because it is lighter.
 

AV-Digger

Member
Frequency transmitted is related to noise cancel. My thoughts are that the transmitted base signal is sampled at multiple intervals, a simple form of multi-frequency. See Gary's video here:
Me either but those fancy pics in the brochure look good. In any given mode, park, field, beach, the two frequencies are weighted depending on which mode is selected. Also, the two frequencies aren't an exact number representation of the 5 listed frequencies. Example, instead of frequencies 5 and 15 it could be 15.8 and 5.4 as the tx and rx signals.

But yep, people get all defensive when told the Nox is using two frequencies in SMF mode.
 
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xwyokid

Well-known member
Well. I sold an Equinox 600 to purchase the Legend. I hope it works out! Finally ordered it about 15 minutes ago. Now the wait...Again.
 

Just coils

Active member
Obviously a Fan Boy.
I love my 600 but am always open to a new technology or a new detector with promise. Minelab has always acted afraid of competition from any other company eating away at their monopoly. With the x-terra they would falsely say after market coils wouldn't work when in reality sometimes they were an improvement and worked fine.
 
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